34' - 38' Coastal Cruiser - My wants vs. my needs

[kirby]

I could use a little sage advice...

I’ve been sailing for 25 years – first on Sunfish, Lasers, Snipes, that I owned and then on Hunter 23’ – 30’ boats of friends. Then I discovered Hobie Cats. I sailed/raced Hobie 16’s for 10 years before getting married and giving up the sport. In the last 5 years, I’ve gotten the wife interested in sailing and we’ve chartered Beneteaus 34’ – 40’ for a couple of weeks in the BVI’s every winter for the last 4 years. Now, we’re think we’re ready for our own boat. We’ll be sailing mainly in the coastal waters of Maine, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island, with the possible trip to the Chesapeake or even the ICW to Florida. No offshore passages in our plans at present. We think that we want a 36’ – 40’ boat that is comfortable inside for 2-4 adults and has a roomy cockpit for enjoying the outdoors (no picnic table). More importantly, we need a boat that has a seakindly motion (we’re both prone to mal di mare), but that sails relatively fast to windward. Coming from the cat world, I think bobbing along at 4-5 knots would make me jump overboard. I’d also like a boat that I could single-hand if necessary. The new little Morris 36’ with headsail winches within easy reach of the wheel is the ultimate. The budget is up to $150k, but I think we can find a suitable boat for less. I’d consider a boat up to 20 years old. I’m an Engineer with years of experience repairing engines, pumps and other misc. mechanical gizmos, so I can fix whatever’s broken, but I’d much rather spend my time sailing.

The biggest problem that I’m having in making a decision is balancing my idea of a beautiful boat against the best boat for my needs. My favorite boats to look at are Hinckleys and Aldens, due to their long overhangs and Hans Christians and almost anything Bob Perry designed with a nice round canoe stern. But after reading the posts here, the collective wisdom says that long overhangs equal hobby-horsing and those nice canoe sterns just limit cockpit and interior space. So where does that leave me? I truly do not like the sugar-scoop stern of most modern boats. While they are extremely practical in terms of dinghy access, I just don’t like the look.

One final wish. (if you are easily offended, skip this part) I’d like a boat that isn’t one of the mass-produced varieties. I’m mainly talking about the benecata-whatevers and my bias is based primarily on my perception of resale values. My searches on YachtWorld confirm that the supply of these boats is much greater than the demand. Based on this observation and just wanting to have a semi-unique boat, I’d prefer something less mainstream.

Until I started reading here, my short list included:

Pacific Seacraft 37
Shannon 38
Ta Shing Tashiba 38
Hinckley Bermuda 40

“These are all blue water boats”, you say. There lies my problem. What I like esthetically doesn’t really fit my needs. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Even if they make me cringe a little initially.

Cheers!

Kirby

[capt lar]

well, with a 150k budget you shouldn't have too much trouble and the boats you listed are are top boats. maybe one of your needs is a boat of a certain style - why fight it ? i like the same types of boats, just personal taste, and although i have raced one designs, i have decided that speed is relative. i want to cruise because i want to relax. with your budget, you could by 2 boats - the rocket and a nice cruiser.
the issues that i ended up making a priority were not the ones i listed in my first post. you did not mention draft, and i think you should. less draft or keel/centerboard will give you access to more places and let you squeeze into harbors that are crowded. my choice might be a bristol 41.1 k/c and you can have the cockpit where you like. the 35.5 would also work, but those that read these posts know i finally decided on a bristol, so now i am as biased as the rest. enjoy the search. capt. lar

[kirby]

I like the looks of the Bristol 40. I'm not sure that I could tell it from a Hinckley 40 - both seem to have the same small picnic table salon setup. I'll definitely consider a Bristol 40, especially if I could find one with a dinette.

You didn't say which Bristol you have.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Kirby

[Paul L]

None of the boats you listed will meet your additional requirement of fast. One type of boat you might want to consider is the cruising J-Boats (J/35c, /J-37 and J-40,). You can get these within your price range. They are easy to sail single-handed with a good deck layout, quick, point very well and are easy to handle in blow.

Paul L

[capt lar]

the 40 is older but sail well. I like the hood designs from the 80's, reverse stern, so you may not go for them, but otherwise nice lines. comes back to draft and single handed sailing. we are surveying a 31.1 tomorrow, she is the little sister of the series and, as i was warned on this site, she has a little weight problem for her size, but i started with a 100k budget, and found that the extra 5 to 7 feet did not really give me more space. my budget went up to 150K and then down to the 50K level. real life with kids, parents, jobs, businesses still takes up alot of our time. we (2) will sail new england waters with destinations 50 miles or less per day so i think she will get us there fast enough. we used to sail overnights from the cape cod canal to gloucester in a 26' wooden cutter - no big thing. smaller boat = less cost for everything. we hope to head to the caribe in 3 years and can always move up. if survey does not go well, i have a couple of other bristols to look at. but seriously - buy what you like. you want to be practical, stay away from boats. capt. lar

[capt lar]

see - here we go again. the fin keel - spade rudder guys are here. and they are right. i was out watching a local fun race over the weekend and watched a j boat overtake a nice 38' racer/cruiser (no name brands please) the j didn't even bother to go above the cruiser - just flew by close to leeward. the look on the racer/cruisers captain's face was not good cause he forgot it was supposed to be fun. j's are good looking boats, lighter, so watch the survey, especially if the boat has been raced. they make a 35 ' cruiser as well. i looked at them and liked them, except for draft. i personally like a modified "full" keel with skeg rudder, but thats just me. capt. lar

[kirby]

As Capt Lar pointed out, I forgot to mention that I'd prefer a fairly shallow draft (up tp 5') so that I can explore shallow inlets. From reading hundreds of postings on SailNet, I'll also be looking for a split keel or a full keel with a protected prop and rudder. Slower, but safer from groundings. (Piece of mind)

And the speed thing, well... I may have to compromise a bit there.

Kirby

[capt lar]

another decent new england boat is the cape dory. the design is popular enough that robinhood marine is building a new version, called, oddly enough, the robinhood 35. these are solid boats with simple clean lines. the cd have had a problem with gelcoat. cape dory, and a few other companies in the 80's, decided more gel coat would hold up better than less, and the result was serious crazing in decks and cabin tops. again, survey. i like 'em. great shower with bench. lots of room below and in cockpit for 35 feet. decent sailor. capt. lar

[kirby]

Another bullseye! The Robinhood 36 is a beauty. Unfortunately, too new (i.e.,too expensive) for my budget. Is the Robinhood the exact same boat as earlier Cape Dorys? I read that they are very slow. Comfortable, but slow.

I just took a look at the Bristol 31.1 - surprisingly roomy inside. It looks like only the galley size is small. A large galley isn't a high priority item for many. Nice boat.

[Paul L]

kirby once whispered in the wind:
As Capt Lar pointed out, I forgot to mention that I'd prefer a fairly shallow draft (up tp 5') so that I can explore shallow inlets. From reading hundreds of postings on SailNet, I'll also be looking for a split keel or a full keel with a protected prop and rudder. Slower, but safer from groundings. (Piece of mind)

And the speed thing, well... I may have to compromise a bit there.

Kirby

I only suggested the J because you specifically stated that you wanted a quick boat. I currently own a J/37 shoal draft (5'6"). My previous boat was a Pearson Alberg 35. I have cruised both of them offshore. So I think I have a fair basis to compare the two kinds of designs for the type of cruising I do (note the emphasis on I. Everyone has their own requirements and prejudices). The Alberg is by far the prettier of the two. It was built on 1961 technology and with 1960's racing rules in mind. You get short water lines and long overhangs.

Now, as far as comfort is concerned. I find the J much easier to sail and much more comfortable in crappy seas and high winds. The deck layout far easier for the single-hander or short-handed crew. The boat sails better standing up, instead of laying on its side. When it really blows, you can run down wind with a reefed main only and the boat feels like it is on rails. In the same conditions on the Alberg I'd be fightng the tiller feeling like it was me against the sea, and I might not win.

The two boats weigh about the same, at least as to design weights. The J will sail in light airs wonderfully. In the Alberg I'd be motoring.

Modern, design fast boats aren't for eveyone, but from your original description of your needs, you might want to at least try and go out in one.

Paul L

[kirby]

I wasn't aware that the was a shoal draft J-Boat or a J-Boat that was also comfortable. The only J's I've been on were small j22's that were wicked fast. That's exactly why I posted my original question - I don't know everything that I should to make a decision yet. I'll ckeck out the J Boats. Thanks!

[capt lar]

you would need to look closely at the specs, but i am told it is essentially the same. they actually improved the lines a litte, raised the bowsprit a little. my point was some of the old time yankees are selling their cd to buy their last new boat, the robinhood, so you should be able to find a cd in good shape maintained by a top yard and knowledgeable owner. they are slow. you can find comparison between boats phrf at www.phrfne.org/page/567. capt. lar

[kirby]

Capt Lar - Check your PM.

[capt lar]

just to reconfirm, i like the j boat line. i reduced my budget and j's were not an option in my price range, not unless they had been raced into the ground. oddly, as i went through the process, i just didn't feel i was giving up much by going smaller. you mentioned the word "galley". you mean the sink and cooktop ? our new (22 year old) boat comes with oven as well - never used. we should be able to maintain that level of shine. we need coffee in the AM - done, salons are big enough - we aren't entertaining, cockpit - room for 4 no problem, berths - most are too small all the way up to 40 footers, aft cabin or not. i finally figured out that the old design with split berths in an aft cabin is probably the most comfortable set up possible. if we move up, that is the feature i would look for, and better sailing comes with the length, and shallow or keel / centerboard without question.
capt. lar

[roverhi]

Is there a 'J' boat with proper cockpit coamings??

No question that modern boats are faster for overall length than older heavier boats in around the buoys races WHEN sailed at their designed displacement. The problem comes if you are serious about going places. A typical cruiser will add a ton and probably two to the displacement of the boat in stores, saftety equipment, chain and rode, toys and just plain comfort items. Now see which boat sails so well.

You have to add length to reduce the deleterious effects of additional weight on a light boat. More length, higher cost. The problem really becomes affordability. To buy a well built, properly reinforced, modern boat, you are going to be well into 6 figures.

For a whale of a lot less money, you can buy an older boat in excellent condition and still be able to afford an occasional beer.

As far as sailing qualities at sea, I really like a little bit of weight. BTDT in both moderate and heavy boats and will take the heavy boat for offshore work. Even though they technically may not be as fast, they seem to get there just as fast and a lot more comfortably.

FWIW, sailed on a Bristol 39 in light to moderate conditions a while back. Only other boat out was a very pretty, brand new 'racy' boat that looked European, though didn't recognize the make. The other boat was shorter overall but probably had a longer waterline. It looked new and was running a similar sized overlapping jib. So bottoms and sail complement looked to be identical. We both left the marina at the same time, raised our sails at the same time and sailed roughly the same course. In light air, we sailed close hauled and the 'racy' boat was soon far astern. We fell off onto a reach as the breeze picked up to maybe 10 knots. We closed on the racy boat and then paralleled there course. Just couldn't resist a little impromptu competition. This time it was as if they dropped an anchor over the side. I was puzzled that this modern looking 'racy' boat was so slow. They seemed to have their pristine sails trimmed properly so don't think it was the crews fault. Could it be that this old, slow, heavy veteran actually sailed that much better?? NAH, no way an old boat could be fast!!!

Iwouldn't rule out a Bristol 40 if you are drawn to that type of design. The Hinckley B-40 looks beautiful but hear they do not sail as well as the Bristol. Also, the Hinckley has acres of teak on deck. A varnish night mare. Of course, the Bristol isn't necessarily devoid of wood on deck. I think the B40 with quarter berth also is a better sea going layout for a couple as you have two seaberths without having to mess with lee cloths and waste good storage like a transom berth does.

Another boat to check out is the Allied XL42. They are a centerboarder so could get you into really shallow water. The interior looks to be ideal for what we want with a generous sized galley area. Only problem is asking prices are mostly just above 6 figures, too pricey for us.

The overhangs are not necessarily a source of hobby horsing. Have sailed on a few of the older boats and really didn't notice any tendency to hobbyhorse. Have sailed on other boats with virtually no overhang that hobbyhorsed very badly. Fullness of the bow, location and length of the ballast, etc. also have a lot to do with it. Bow overhang gives additional buoyancy when running down wind. Something that can be especially nice when trying to survive in really big seas.

For your budget, there should be tons of boats out there. Might even want to look at metal boats. A lot of different styles and materials out there.

Aloha
Peter O.