45 foot 1970's IOR racer stored in a barn for 25 to 30 years

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Or any buddies or workers who could have helped with the keel removal.

The missing keel amazes me, and is enough cost to spend some effort.

Why remove a keel? It sounds like you bought the boat with he trailer. That would lead me ti assume he moved the boat to he ban on he trailer. Was it stored in he trailer?

My next guess is that he removed the keel at tue time he pulled the boat out. Maybe he left it there? May well be tone but Insure as hell would poke around at a that yard.

Well I missed the above post. Sorry for that.

But I would still try to find out where he keel was removed and look around there. One never knows and an only ask.

[Don C L]

She looks like a beautiful boat, but the cost of replacing the keel and sails is, well, big. I hate to be a naysayer too but I'd agree that there are beautiful old IOR boats with keels and sails looking for a good home that would cost a fraction of this one. Still if you decide to go forward with it, best of luck with it and I hope you'll chronicle the whole refit for us. It is a fascinating story to follow, and I am not being sarcastic here. I know what it's like to fall for a boat regardless of how poor an "investment" it may be.

[Russel2]

Originally Posted by Don C L

She looks like a beautiful boat, but the cost of replacing the keel and sails is, well, big. I hate to be a naysayer too but I'd agree that there are beautiful old IOR boats with keels and sails looking for a good home that would cost a fraction of this one. Still if you decide to go forward with it, best of luck with it and I hope you'll chronicle the whole refit for us. It is a fascinating story to follow, and I am not being sarcastic here. I know what it's like to fall for a boat regardless of how poor an "investment" it may be.

Hi Don C L

You are absolutely right! Owning a pleasure boat makes no financial sense at all. However, to me, owning a boat is a hobby, a passion, an exercise of both mental and physical capabilities. I love working on them and sailing them. I enjoy the journey as much as the destination. And all along there is something new to learn or experience.
I posted here about MYSTERY so that I might learn something more about her that I can share with all my family and friends that sail with me. And I will share what I learn here about her with all those I might meet during my future journeys on MYSTERY.

I am now realizing that while I am currently seeking the history of MYSTERY's past, many on this board are interested in MYSTERY's story, both both past and present. I will attempt to answer the forum members questions. I will also update this thread with MYSTERY's ongoing refit over the next couple of years right through to her sailing again. However this is a hobby of mine, so it will be slow because I so thoroughly enjoy the journey. I will caution all, that I have had a life long affair with sailboats and of course have fallen in love with MYSTERY's graceful sheer. So I am not in a rush. And my thoughts, opinions and actions with regards to MYSTERY are biased by my love of her lines.

Thank you for you words of wisdom.

Cheers, Ric

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Russel2

Hi Don C L

You are absolutely right! Owning a pleasure boat makes no financial sense at all. However, to me, owning a boat is a hobby, a passion, an exercise of both mental and physical capabilities. I love working on them and sailing them. I enjoy the journey as much as the destination. And all along there is something new to learn or experience.
I posted here about MYSTERY so that I might learn something more about her that I can share with all my family and friends that sail with me. And I will share what I learn here about her with all those I might meet during my future journeys on MYSTERY.

I am now realizing that while I am currently seeking the history of MYSTERY's past, many on this board are interested in MYSTERY's story, both both past and present. I will attempt to answer the forum members questions. I will also update this thread with MYSTERY's ongoing refit over the next couple of years right through to her sailing again. However this is a hobby of mine, so it will be slow because I so thoroughly enjoy the journey. I will caution all, that I have had a life long affair with sailboats and of course have fallen in love with MYSTERY's graceful sheer. So I am not in a rush. And my thoughts, opinions and actions with regards to MYSTERY are biased by my love of her lines.

Thank you for you words of wisdom.

Cheers, Ric

Ah well in that case you're going to have a lot of fun restoring this boat! And when you are done you'll have a beautiful boat. Do you have shots of the deck and the interior?

[psk125]

Two things might be helpful in learning more about this boat. First, a shot - or several- of the deck, showing the layout of the cabin, hatches, ports and cockpit. Second, photos of the ends of the cove stripes. Builders often have trademarked cove stripes - e.g. Hinkley and Concordia - so you can tell immediately that they built it, even if you don't know which design it is. The pictures in the album are too distant to show much detail, which might provide such useful clues. Pictures of the interior layout might also help. I raced a Whitby 45 to Bermuda twice. Mystery is not a Whitby 45.

[Russel2]

AH! The case of the missing keel.

This is dedicated to everyone that has inquired about MYSTERY's missing keel.

And oh yes, I know what happened to it.

All of the following occurred before I purchased MYSTERY and therefore was part of the purchasing decision.

First a bit of history.

When I first saw MYSTERY in the barn on her trailer, she was under a large tarp that completely covered her, with the edges of the tarp falling all the way to the floor of the barn. Then, I walked to her stern and saw that the bottom edge of her skeg hung rudder stopped only about six inches above the floor. I then glanced under the tarp and saw.......no keel. Yes, MYSTERY was sitting on her bilge sump floor on the bed of the trailer. Right away I knew MYSTERY's draft was about eight feet and that if I bought her, I would have to reduce the draft to about six feet for the harbors on the Great Lakes. Outside of the barn, in a sixteen foot tall steel double A-frame, was the keel hanging from chain falls.

The keel

The keel had a profile typical of the era, all lead, 60" tall with 45 degree raked leading and trailing edges. It had a total of 10, 1" dia. keel bolts that rose 20 inches above the mating surface. Yes, 20 inches long. MYSTERY's keel bolts pass though 18" of thick, solid fiberglass frames or keel floors in the bilge. I think she might be a little overbuilt in the hull.

History of the keel

About 1990, MYSTERY was purchased by the previous owner somewhere on the USA east coast. The keel was removed to reduce the load height of the boat on the trailer while she was trucked to Ontario. When MYSTERY arrived in Ontario, she then had a refit consisting of a hull repaint, bow thruster installation and new Perkins Prima M60 engine installation. The keel was then reinstalled using epoxy filler in the bolt holes because they were all oversize. MYSTERY was then sailed on Lake St Clair for one summer. She was then hauled out and the keel removed again. She and her keel were loaded on the trailer, and transported to the barn on the farm. The previous owner was then planning to refit all of the electrical and electronics and do other cosmetic upgrades at his leisure in the barn. The keel was hung in the A-frame for storage and refit.

Examination of the keel

When I refer to a keel bolt, I am actually referring to the portion of the threaded rod that is above the mating surface of the keel and extends from the armature buried in the core of the lead keel

The keel had not been handled professionally. All 10 of the 1" dia keel bolts were damaged during the removal and transport. Some had their sides deeply cut into by the hole saw which was used to remove the epoxy bedding around the bolts. The rest had been bent during shipping and handling for transport. Someone had attempted to bend the bolts back. But of coarse, when you bend stainless, it work hardens. So the pipe on a bolt trick simply bent the bolt back, higher up on the bolt, so that it was now slightly S shaped. The keel also had a strange vertical crack, running from top to bottom down roughly the middle of each side. Drilling 3/4 inch holes through the thinner aft side of the keel revealed that the original keel's trailing edge had been vertical. The vertical trailing edge shoe had been added to it with the V legs of the shoe extending along the sides of the original keel about three feet forward. So the new raked trailing edge vertical shoe was 5' tall by about 3' long with it's internal V shape matching the vertical trailing edge of the original keel. It probably weighed about a 1,000 pounds. But, not being a perfect match, the gap, which ranged from nothing to up to 3/8ths of an inch in some spots, was filled with a light grey asbestos polyester compound. The shoe was then mechanically fastened with dozens of 1/4 in diameter stainless steel lag bolts and then faired. The keel had hung outside for the past 30 years through our Canadian freeze thaw cycles. With it's top surface exposed to the elements, water had leaked into the compound and opened up the shoe's joint. Thus, the faired in shoe was exposed. It was obvious that there had been a significant modification to the keel that was now failing. In addition, I had known from first glance, that I would want to reduce the draft of the keel.

Fortunately, Mars Keel is in Hamilton about 100 miles away from London or Bayfield. Mars has made and shipped keels all over the world for the past 40 odd years. If Mars Keel was not so close, I would never have bought the boat.

Option #1

So, I could build a shipping cradle for the old keel $?, hire a crane to lift the keel into the cradle $?, have the Mars truck come from Hamilton to the farm to pick up the keel $?, hire the crane back to lift the keel in it's cradle onto the Mars truck $?, pay for the Mars truck to transport the keel in it's cradle to Mars in Hamilton $?, have Mars replace all the keel bolts $?, have Mars cut about two feet off the bottom of the keel $?, have Mars add a split lead bulb to the bottom edges of the keel to compensate for the draft reduction $?, have Mars remove and refit the trailing edge lead shoe $?, have the Mars truck transport the refurbished, now four piece keel to MYSTERY in Bayfield $?.

Mars Keels can do all of the above. But!, what happens if, after the keel arrives at Mars, they have a look at the keel and because of the shoe bedded in the asbestos polyester compound fixed with dozens of random hidden stainless steel lag bolts, they decline to work on it and ask me to come retrieve it!..........$$$$$$$$$$$?????????????


Option #2

Mars Keel has stored over a hundred patterns for keels that they have poured over the decades for various manufacturers of boats, in case someone needs a replacement keel.

So, I could scrap the keel. The local scrap metal dealer( they are licensed to handle hazardous materials) will pick up the keel, cut out the stainless steel, remove the filler compound, weigh the scrap lead and scrap stainless steel and mail me a cheque.

Then, I could attend Mars Keel some time in the future. Drop off the pattern I made of the top of MYSTERY's keel with the keel bolt pattern. I tell Mars how tall I wish the keel to be. Mars, being the experts, pick out the appropriate keel pattern from their existing inventory, make up a keel bolt armature according to my pattern, cast the keel and transport it to MYSTERY in Bayfield. And then I write Mars Keel a cheque for a brand new keel. Exact dollars to be quoted.

So what do you think I should have done?....................Option #1 or Option #2?

I went with Option #2

I scrapped the keel. The exact keel weight was 11,498 pounds. I received a cheque for over $6,000, which will be applied to the new keel's cost, and I will be ordering a new keel from Mars Keel in the near future.

So, instead of having a refurbished four part keel. Which would be the old keel stub with ten new bolts added plus the refurbished trailing edge shoe plus a port half bulb and a starboard half bulb.

MYSTERY will get a new, shallower draft, purpose designed one piece keel.

All of the above was taken into consideration before I purchased the old sailboat, hidden in the barn, that I now call MYSTERY.

Cheers, Ric

PS: Before the scrap dealer picked up the old keel, I cut 1012 pounds off of the trailing edge. I cut it off in 40 to 60 pound chunks plus lead chips. I will save it to use for trim ballast in the bilge, if required, when MYSTERY is launched with her new keel.

PPS: Would any one be interested in a lightly used chainsaw? Good for cutting through solid lead and 1/4 in diameter stainless steel bolts.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Russel2

Fortunately, Mars Keel is in Hamilton about 100 miles away from London or Bayfield. Mars has made and shipped keels all over the world for the past 40 odd years. If Mars Keel was not so close, I would never have bought the boat.

Hamilton ?
Last time I was in Mars they were in Burlington, ON.

[Russel2]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Hamilton ?
Last time I was in Mars they were in Burlington, ON.

Hi boatpoker,

You are absolutely right. They are in Burlington, ON. I said nearby Hamilton because it's location is a little bit more well known. I almost said near Toronto just to give the general location. In the future I will be more precise. You will notice I used miles instead of kilometers and it is rounded off to 100.

Cheers, Ric

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Russel2

Hi boatpoker,

You are absolutely right. They are in Burlington, ON. I said nearby Hamilton because it's location is a little bit more well known. I almost said near Toronto just to give the general location. In the future I will be more precise. You will notice I used miles instead of kilometers and it is rounded off to 100.

Cheers, Ric

I still struggle with the kilometer thing myself and can't bring myself to spell draught any other way

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Russel2

AH! The case of the missing keel.

This is dedicated to everyone that has inquired about MYSTERY's missing keel.

And oh yes, I know what happened to it.

All of the following occurred before I purchased MYSTERY and therefore was part of the purchasing decision.

First a bit of history.

When I first saw MYSTERY in the barn on her trailer, she was under a large tarp that completely covered her, with the edges of the tarp falling all the way to the floor of the barn. Then, I walked to her stern and saw that the bottom edge of her skeg hung rudder stopped only about six inches above the floor. I then glanced under the tarp and saw.......no keel. Yes, MYSTERY was sitting on her bilge sump floor on the bed of the trailer. Right away I knew MYSTERY's draft was about eight feet and that if I bought her, I would have to reduce the draft to about six feet for the harbors on the Great Lakes. Outside of the barn, in a sixteen foot tall steel double A-frame, was the keel hanging from chain falls.

The keel

The keel had a profile typical of the era, all lead, 60" tall with 45 degree raked leading and trailing edges. It had a total of 10, 1" dia. keel bolts that rose 20 inches above the mating surface. Yes, 20 inches long. MYSTERY's keel bolts pass though 18" of thick, solid fiberglass frames or keel floors in the bilge. I think she might be a little overbuilt in the hull.

History of the keel

About 1990, MYSTERY was purchased by the previous owner somewhere on the USA east coast. The keel was removed to reduce the load height of the boat on the trailer while she was trucked to Ontario. When MYSTERY arrived in Ontario, she then had a refit consisting of a hull repaint, bow thruster installation and new Perkins Prima M60 engine installation. The keel was then reinstalled using epoxy filler in the bolt holes because they were all oversize. MYSTERY was then sailed on Lake St Clair for one summer. She was then hauled out and the keel removed again. She and her keel were loaded on the trailer, and transported to the barn on the farm. The previous owner was then planning to refit all of the electrical and electronics and do other cosmetic upgrades at his leisure in the barn. The keel was hung in the A-frame for storage and refit.

Examination of the keel

When I refer to a keel bolt, I am actually referring to the portion of the threaded rod that is above the mating surface of the keel and extends from the armature buried in the core of the lead keel

The keel had not been handled professionally. All 10 of the 1" dia keel bolts were damaged during the removal and transport. Some had their sides deeply cut into by the hole saw which was used to remove the epoxy bedding around the bolts. The rest had been bent during shipping and handling for transport. Someone had attempted to bend the bolts back. But of coarse, when you bend stainless, it work hardens. So the pipe on a bolt trick simply bent the bolt back, higher up on the bolt, so that it was now slightly S shaped. The keel also had a strange vertical crack, running from top to bottom down roughly the middle of each side. Drilling 3/4 inch holes through the thinner aft side of the keel revealed that the original keel's trailing edge had been vertical. The vertical trailing edge shoe had been added to it with the V legs of the shoe extending along the sides of the original keel about three feet forward. So the new raked trailing edge vertical shoe was 5' tall by about 3' long with it's internal V shape matching the vertical trailing edge of the original keel. It probably weighed about a 1,000 pounds. But, not being a perfect match, the gap, which ranged from nothing to up to 3/8ths of an inch in some spots, was filled with a light grey asbestos polyester compound. The shoe was then mechanically fastened with dozens of 1/4 in diameter stainless steel lag bolts and then faired. The keel had hung outside for the past 30 years through our Canadian freeze thaw cycles. With it's top surface exposed to the elements, water had leaked into the compound and opened up the shoe's joint. Thus, the faired in shoe was exposed. It was obvious that there had been a significant modification to the keel that was now failing. In addition, I had known from first glance, that I would want to reduce the draft of the keel.

Fortunately, Mars Keel is in Hamilton about 100 miles away from London or Bayfield. Mars has made and shipped keels all over the world for the past 40 odd years. If Mars Keel was not so close, I would never have bought the boat.

Option #1

So, I could build a shipping cradle for the old keel $?, hire a crane to lift the keel into the cradle $?, have the Mars truck come from Hamilton to the farm to pick up the keel $?, hire the crane back to lift the keel in it's cradle onto the Mars truck $?, pay for the Mars truck to transport the keel in it's cradle to Mars in Hamilton $?, have Mars replace all the keel bolts $?, have Mars cut about two feet off the bottom of the keel $?, have Mars add a split lead bulb to the bottom edges of the keel to compensate for the draft reduction $?, have Mars remove and refit the trailing edge lead shoe $?, have the Mars truck transport the refurbished, now four piece keel to MYSTERY in Bayfield $?.

Mars Keels can do all of the above. But!, what happens if, after the keel arrives at Mars, they have a look at the keel and because of the shoe bedded in the asbestos polyester compound fixed with dozens of random hidden stainless steel lag bolts, they decline to work on it and ask me to come retrieve it!..........$$$$$$$$$$$?????????????


Option #2

Mars Keel has stored over a hundred patterns for keels that they have poured over the decades for various manufacturers of boats, in case someone needs a replacement keel.

So, I could scrap the keel. The local scrap metal dealer( they are licensed to handle hazardous materials) will pick up the keel, cut out the stainless steel, remove the filler compound, weigh the scrap lead and scrap stainless steel and mail me a cheque.

Then, I could attend Mars Keel some time in the future. Drop off the pattern I made of the top of MYSTERY's keel with the keel bolt pattern. I tell Mars how tall I wish the keel to be. Mars, being the experts, pick out the appropriate keel pattern from their existing inventory, make up a keel bolt armature according to my pattern, cast the keel and transport it to MYSTERY in Bayfield. And then I write Mars Keel a cheque for a brand new keel. Exact dollars to be quoted.

So what do you think I should have done?....................Option #1 or Option #2?

I went with Option #2

I scrapped the keel. The exact keel weight was 11,498 pounds. I received a cheque for over $6,000, which will be applied to the new keel's cost, and I will be ordering a new keel from Mars Keel in the near future.

So, instead of having a refurbished four part keel. Which would be the old keel stub with ten new bolts added plus the refurbished trailing edge shoe plus a port half bulb and a starboard half bulb.

MYSTERY will get a new, shallower draft, purpose designed one piece keel.

All of the above was taken into consideration before I purchased the old sailboat, hidden in the barn, that I now call MYSTERY.

Cheers, Ric

PS: Before the scrap dealer picked up the old keel, I cut 1012 pounds off of the trailing edge. I cut it off in 40 to 60 pound chunks plus lead chips. I will save it to use for trim ballast in the bilge, if required, when MYSTERY is launched with her new keel.

PPS: Would any one be interested in a lightly used chainsaw? Good for cutting through solid lead and 1/4 in diameter stainless steel bolts.

Russel;

Thanks for that. I think you chose wisely.

You are a brave man.

[Hesti]

Quite an adventure! If she is your boat and you want to sail her, it's best not to think about other boats or money but to just steam ahead and get her into commission again.

If you can not find out the originals, it might make sense for you to involve a marine architect if you can find one for the sail plan and the new keel to get the balance right first time. Try and error would be a bit dear. Also, the fact, that the original keel had been altered already - there must have been a story linked to that, likely a change of sail plan, shorter mast or longer boom or whatever when being set up for cruising. Shortening masts is not unusual when converting a racer for cruising. Or she needed more lateral plane area aft from when built originally.

[longjonsilver]

i loved reading this story, especially the part about the keel. i know of a boat here in Nova Scotia that the builder installed a saildrive under the companionway instead of the A4 in the bilge. 300 lbs moved 10 feet aft made her sit low in the stern. The buyer then dropped the keel and added 2000lbs to the forward portion of the keel, making her sit 2 inches low in the water, but level. She is still sailing around here.
jon

[Jim Cate]

Ric, thanks for explaining your keel issues more fully. I now believe your project has a good chance of success, and I withdraw my suggestion of changing boats in mid stream!

I would be interested in drawings or pictures of both the old and the proposed new keels should they be available.

Good luck with the project... she should be a super boat when done.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Your keel decision makes sense to me, too. One thing I'd add. Our boats keel is such that the boat can sit on it without props (and we can walk all the way fore and aft and she doesn't move), and it makes hauling on marine railways possible. One encounters them more often than travelifts, in some places. So, if it fits for Mystery, having that ability might be one part of what you instruct the keel builders.

Seems to me you're making your "luck" as you go along. Good on ya.

Ann

[Russel2]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Your keel decision makes sense to me, too. One thing I'd add. Our boats keel is such that the boat can sit on it without props (and we can walk all the way fore and aft and she doesn't move), and it makes hauling on marine railways possible. One encounters them more often than travelifts, in some places. So, if it fits for Mystery, having that ability might be one part of what you instruct the keel builders.

Seems to me you're making your "luck" as you go along. Good on ya.

Ann

Hi JPA Cate,

I agree with your thoughts about being able to sit on the keel. MYSTERY has a solid F/G keel stub which is horizontal or parallel with the waterline. It is 18" thick and 12 inches wide from the engine beds running forward to where the hull form slowly rises up towards the bow. The threaded rod for the keel will have to protrude 21" above the top surface of the lead to accommodate the nuts and washers. There are also in effect, F/G frames the same depth running athwartships tapering into the rise of the hull sides. I would consider her to have a very stiff, hard bottom. My thoughts are to have MarsKeel select a keel from their inventory which is longer to make up for the loss of lateral plane area when I go with less draft. MarsKeel will use my template of the existing keel bolt holes. They can then add extra "keel bolts" to the armature forward and aft as required, and I will drill the additional holes thru the 18" thick stub floor. My hope is that they will find a suitable long keel that has a centerboard slot. Keels for centerboarders are virtually always wide and flat on the bottom. I will ask them not to put the core for the slot in, and the keel will be poured to be solid. They can pour so that the keel's top surface is a few inches higher or lower as required to set the draft. MYSTERY has a large, vertical shaft, skeg hung, barn door rudder. I do not think she was ever meant to engage in a tacking dual. I think she was designed to race in a straight line from the US north east coast to Bermuda or Key West etc. About 1990 during the previous owners refit, he recognized her lack of maneuverability around the docks and had a bow thruster fitted to assist with low speed maneuvering. All of the above fits with my plan of using MYSTERY as a gentleman's cruising boat to sail the Great Lakes. She would also be very capable of cruising down the east coat to the Caribbean as well.

I always hope that Lady Luck is happy and stays smiling while she sails with me!

Cheers, Ric