A bit more boat help please.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Well I learned something new today- Yamaha made sailboats! Were they built in Japan?

Not only does Yamaha make a sailboat, they also put the engine under the v-berth.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by fireant

So here I'm still looking. Came across two boats that i would be looking at this weekend. One is a 1978 Ericson 34

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...217453552.html

The other boat is a 1978 yamaha 33

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...214461403.html

Both boats are at the top of what I want to pay for a boat.
It seems the Yamaha was sold in 2018 with some electronics like chart plotter but now it has NO electronics what so ever.
SO does the Ericson it has only a radio.
Its as if both boats are bare bone
From what I read the Ericson is you love it or hate it. Most people prefer the 80's model as it had some improvements .
On the Yamaha there is not much info out there. But what I could find it seems everyone loves them.
I'm still looking for my first boat to learn to sail and maybe take a few trips up and down the coast for a few day or more.
What is everyone opinion on those boats and if the price seems fair.
From what I see, some boats take a long time to sell. When its time for me to sell I rather not get stuck with one no one wants.

Thank you

You can only learn so much from ads...your visits this weekend should help you make your decision. I have look at the numbers and both appear to be good boats for learning to sail, the Yamaha slightly better. Both have high ballast to displacement ratios so they will be stiff and not much room for cruising gear.

But sailing is one thing and boat ownership is something else. For learning how to sail you don't need many electronics but you do need the basics; many used boats come with very old electronics but if they work so be it. You need a sound hull, good sails, good standing and running rigging, and a reliable engine to start with.

Has the hull been painted...once painted there is no turning back. How many total original hours on the engine...overhauls are only as good as the man that did the work...perhaps getting an engine survey if you get that serious about it---I got one once and turned the boat down on the mechanic's recommendation.

When the time comes get the best surveyor you can afford.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[gonesail]

if it were me looking for a boat .. I would hold out for something less than 30 years old .. in good working and sailing order. adjust the size as needed

[waterman46]

Choose the one that has the best condition and that no red flags are apparent. Engine condition is important. You can get by with crappy sails and old rigging for local sailing, but an unreliable engine is a nightmare. Oh, and go for a diesel rather than gas, most important.

Don't believe the 15K maintenance per year I read about in post above. that would be for a full competitive racing schedule. Or for upgrading a larger boat for real cruising. As long as you don't need engine work, just to start sailing locally you likely won't need anything significant beyond a normal haul out and bottom job if needed. Slip fees will be your greatest expense. Sales tax once and property tax every year. Get numbers from broker. Above all that, plan about 5K/year which will include one or two new major items plus 3 years between haul-outs and have a diver or yourself clean the bottom every 3 months.

Dodger? Local conditions, unless you go to Cabo or Monterey, will not require a dodger at all, especially since as I assume you are young and not a sissy to cold like me at my age.

If you're going to Channel Islands, VHF, AIS and cell-phone or PC app for display if you don't want to spend for chartplotter. New flares, used kayaks or dinghy. Motor for dinghy absolutely not needed in Channel Islands anchorages. Kayaks best for exploring caves and rocky coves.

The partnership thing can be great, but only if you already know the other guys well. I did that for my first boat, then bought out the other owners when they decided they really didn't like sailing that much. Partnerships are a problem when deciding how to spend money for upgrades or even maintenance. My guys were nice, and deferred to my experience but it wouldn't always be so easy.

Yeah, SD can be a difficult place to find a slip. We stayed all the way down in Chula Vista where there is a great marina. Long trip out to ocean though.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by fireant

So here I'm still looking. Came across two boats that i would be looking at this weekend. One is a 1978 Ericson 34

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...217453552.html

The other boat is a 1978 yamaha 33

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...214461403.html

Both boats are at the top of what I want to pay for a boat.
It seems the Yamaha was sold in 2018 with some electronics like chart plotter but now it has NO electronics what so ever.
SO does the Ericson it has only a radio.
Its as if both boats are bare bone
From what I read the Ericson is you love it or hate it. Most people prefer the 80's model as it had some improvements .
On the Yamaha there is not much info out there. But what I could find it seems everyone loves them.
I'm still looking for my first boat to learn to sail and maybe take a few trips up and down the coast for a few day or more.
What is everyone opinion on those boats and if the price seems fair.
From what I see, some boats take a long time to sell. When its time for me to sell I rather not get stuck with one no one wants.

Thank you

I'm wondering how a boat with no electronics can be deemed ready to go? That's a busy shipping lane between between L.A. and Catalina (which is about the only place to go) and AIS would be necessary at a minimum. For resale purposes, the Ericson would be the better choice as more buyers would be familiar with that brand - Yamaha makes everything from keyboards to outboards but is not known for their sailboats. The listing on the Yamaha has been removed BTW so maybe it's gone. While many areas are considered to be a buyers market right now, Southern California is not one of them - you'd probably find a better deal elsewhere.

[fireant]

Ok im in my car now. Need a to bounce idea from you good folks.
The ericson is a scam. Guy buys and sells boats. That boat has rotten floors things are broken. He glued painted and covered up all the problems. on the outside it looks good. Under the repairs its gone. wanted to kick the guy.
The yamaha is the best condition boat i seen yet. Engine was rebuild BUT its raw water cooled . start easy from cold and run ok for a single cly. keel bolts are in great shape.
rigging from the little I know look old but nothing is broken.
Interior is all there nothing broken .over all looks like a good boat. Not much interior room as there are those stupid settee on each side of the boat that take way too much room. I were thinking to offer $9,000 would that sound good . wife likes the boat say its feels best and bright.
I like the boat but I think its over priced or maybe im just cheap

[JPA Cate]

Someone warned you off raw water cooled engines, earlier in the thread. However, fwiw, our previous boat had a raw water cooled BMW 2 cyl., and there were a few maintenance things we did, but that said, the raw water nature of it was not a problem that made life bad. Once a year, we'd give the cooling system an acid wash (remove the engine zincs first). Kept the boat 18 yrs, with that engine. Full time cruising.


Ann

[Celestialsailor]

Personally...neither boat. Save a few more bucks and buy a slightly smaller, higher quality boat. Ericson's are cheaply laid up and cheaply built.

[Djarraluda]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "I'm still looking for my first boat to learn to sail and maybe take a few trips up and down the coast for a few day or more"

To add to the valuable comments made by LittleWing:

Both of these boats were designed by reputable designers to cater to a market (American/Californian predominantly) at a time when the essential difference in design criteria twixt boats designed to be racers and boats designed to be cruisers had become so thoroughly muddled that all that was lauded by the glossy mags (which, of course, is where most landsmen get their initial knowledge of boats) was boats that were neither fish nor foul.

The two boats you are looking at have accommodations that are essential identical and the bare minimum for any kind of cruising. They also, both of them, have basic design numbers that are appropriate for racing under the then existing rules: Sail Area/Displacement of about 18, Displacement/Waterline length of about 225. So there is really nothing to choose between them in that respect. Boats chosen by experienced cruising folk have - generally - lower SA/D and higher D/L numbers.

It comes down, therefore, to choosing the particular boat that has the fewest structural and mechanical deficiencies, i.e. that will be least costly to maintain. Anyone can find the bux to buy a boat. Far fewer can find the bux to KEEP a boat! Take some time to scull around on our forum for "Surveying 101" by our member "Boatpoker" Reading and understanding Boatpoker's "manual of surveying" will enable you to do your own surveys to the same standard that a lot of surveyors charge you big money for.

If these two particular boats were used for serious racing in their former lives, they will be fitted out with gear that makes them not the best kind of boat for a novice (which you say you are) to learn on. It can be done, but it is not IMO the best way, because handling them properly requires a fund of sailing knowledge that is best acquired on steadier, less "squirrelly" boats.

If you have no intentions (or indeed the budget) of racing for glory and tin pots, but your desire is to cruise, then IMO you should 1) learn what are the desiderata for GOOD cruising boats in terms of hull shape, rigging, arrangements and outfit. 2) accept the fundamental fact of life that such boats cost more to buy than what is contemplated here and, MORE PARTICULARLY, that the KEEPING of them is expensive. My piddling 30-footer, a pilot house cruiser specifically designed for the Salish Sea (Puget Sound north to Alaska) requires feeding to the tune of 15 grand a year, i.e. substantially the same amount of money as the acquisition costs of either of these two boats.

Best, therefore, if you wish to buy either of these two boats, to budget for a cash outlay of $30K for the first year of ownership, and for a cash outlay of $15K for every year thereafter for as long as you own the boat. You might consider, in consequence of this being money you will never see again, whether you would be better served by using the money for chartering from a reputable outfit for the rather small number of days in a year that you'll actually be using a boat.

All the best you you.

TrentePieds

The old adage for maintenance costs was, 20% of value per annum for a timber boat, 10% PA for a GRP boat. Note that was for maintenance, not for ownership. Moorings, insurance, club memberships, tender berthing charges, upgrades etc are separate.
Roger

[Djarraluda]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

I'm wondering how a boat with no electronics can be deemed ready to go? That's a busy shipping lane between between L.A. and Catalina (which is about the only place to go) and AIS would be necessary at a minimum. For resale purposes, the Ericson would be the better choice as more buyers would be familiar with that brand - Yamaha makes everything from keyboards to outboards but is not known for their sailboats. The listing on the Yamaha has been removed BTW so maybe it's gone. While many areas are considered to be a buyers market right now, Southern California is not one of them - you'd probably find a better deal elsewhere.

Need to be more location specific with those comments. Yamahas were very popular, we had lots IN HK in 70s/80s, they had a great reputation. May were raced hard and successfully, all stood up well. Known to be bright and airy in cabin, which suited the hot sticky climate I suppose. I could definitely recommend them as a reputable brand name for 30 and 33 ft boats. Of course, I do not know who else might have built the same boats in USA, or if they were all imported from the one builder world wide. Check the provenance there if yo decide to proceed.
Roger

[Djarraluda]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Not only does Yamaha make a sailboat, they also put the engine under the v-berth.

Yes, engine location was the drawback in my view.

[Fore and Aft]

Fireant I surveyed a Yamaha here in Queensland and thought it was a high quality build with everything done right and no sign of osmosis. The engine under the v-berth is an acquired taste but at least it’s accessible.
Little Wing the buyers sold that yacht in less than 12 months of buying her, which happens so often. On the day of the survey the buyers had a big Labrador fur baby with them. When I asked about the dog getting below they happily reassured me they did not mind lifting him up and down the companion way. Well it did not take long for that novelty to wear off and you cannot sell your fur baby so the yacht had to go.
DDabs Yamaha used to make an inboard Diesel engine as well. There are still a few in boats here.
Cheers

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Djarraluda

The old adage for maintenance costs was, 20% of value per annum for a timber boat, 10% PA for a GRP boat. Note that was for maintenance, not for ownership. Moorings, insurance, club memberships, tender berthing charges, upgrades etc are separate.
Roger

Well, the "old adage" was wrong IMO. In around 50 years of boat ownership we've NEVER had such expenses in an ongoing maintenance situation.

Grossly exaggerated.

Jim

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fireant

Ok im in my car now. Need a to bounce idea from you good folks.
The ericson is a scam. Guy buys and sells boats. That boat has rotten floors things are broken. He glued painted and covered up all the problems. on the outside it looks good. Under the repairs its gone. wanted to kick the guy.
The yamaha is the best condition boat i seen yet. Engine was rebuild BUT its raw water cooled . start easy from cold and run ok for a single cly. keel bolts are in great shape.
rigging from the little I know look old but nothing is broken.
Interior is all there nothing broken .over all looks like a good boat. Not much interior room as there are those stupid settee on each side of the boat that take way too much room. I were thinking to offer $9,000 would that sound good . wife likes the boat say its feels best and bright.
I like the boat but I think its over priced or maybe im just cheap

It sounds like the Erickson is off the table due to condition. The Yamaha has a good reputaion for build quality. I had very good friends who owned one. Nice boat. Survey the boat carfully and the engine very carefully.

Don't let anyone tell you that since these were designed as Racer/Cruisers they would be difficult to sail and learn on, or that the sailing quality would be bad for a beginner. This is an IOR boat no doubt, but if you keep the sail area you're using to a moderate size then the boat will sail well and be easy to handle. But remember, you will have in your hands a powerful machine (it's like a fine car with a big engine). If you overpower this boat with too much sail up in a breeze it will be a handful. But treat it gently and it will reward you. One more thing about old race boats: they will be easy to operate. The sail handling gear was designed for efficient crew work. There will be thoughtful leads and low friction.

Dodger. You will be sailing a boat which loves to go to windward. It will be a terror to windward. But going like a rocket upwind, fun as it is, will be wet.

We sailed our boat without a dodger for 10 years. We found that good foulweather gear was essential. Then WE MADE a dodger ourselves. Save about $3000 doing it ourselves. Life got better on long upwind trips.

[fireant]

Didn't get the Yamaha. I didn't like the guy He tried to play people against each other. He would take a deposit from one person . But is someone offer more money for the boat he would give the deposit back and take the other person deposit. He done it to two people then when we talked about price he shows me a text from a lady that gave him a deposit and got a survey lined up. Basically he tried to impress us that he has many buyers. But if we offer to him more money he would sell the boat to us. give that lady her deposit back. She had a survey lined up, you don't do that to people.

I don't deal with people like that. I feel good about walking away from that boat.