A Good Article That Addresses The Most Asked Question On This Forum

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "If full keels are the way to go why are they not made today."

Let's qualify carefully :-)! It is not that "full keel" is "the way to go". Not always. Only in certain circumstances. That was the point Tom Cunliffe made. Those "certain circumstances" are, broadly speaking, those of making ocean passages, especially passages made by relatively inexperienced sailors and by singlehanders.

......

I don't get this justification. The short water line, heavy, slow long keeler is appropriate for the 'inexperienced passage' maker for how long? After one ocean crossing, after two? Buying an offshore boat because you believe it will take care of you when you stop doing anything active and let it go to it's own seems to leave out the other 99.95% of the time you are offshore.
A boat that arrives three days after the more modern design has just exposed themselves to three more days of possible bad weather systems. If you look at the storms with a variety of cruising boats like the Queen's Birthday storm between New Zealand and Tonga/Fiji, hull shape doesn't stand out as being protective. Overall size was more a predictor of safety..
These days the 'inexperienced' passage maker is just as likely to be going on a Cat.

A CCA design boat is pretty to look at. In my experience offshore they are not comfortable or fast. (I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years). I felt a lot safer in my two other boats offshore - both relatively quick boats (J37 and an Outbound 44). In tough conditions the J could be easily sailed with a tiny amount of sail, putting really low loads on the boat and crew.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Paul L: similar exp but w/ a chartered Pogo 30. You'll think it checks off all the boxes for "unseaworthy by the opinions of an old boat zealot" - 30ft, but with nearly 12 ft beam. Under 3 tons.

I don't think the zealots fully comprehend the diff it feels when your loads are so much lower because the boat it light, the keel is deep and it doesn't go rolly on you. I think we had 3 reefs in, and a reefed staysail in 30knots+ with gusts even higher and all it did was plane and voila the dangerous pressure differential is gone.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't get this justification. The short water line, heavy, slow long keeler is appropriate for the 'inexperienced passage' maker for how long? After one ocean crossing, after two? Buying an offshore boat because you believe it will take care of you when you stop doing anything active and let it go to it's own seems to leave out the other 99.95% of the time you are offshore.
A boat that arrives three days after the more modern design has just exposed themselves to three more days of possible bad weather systems. If you look at the storms with a variety of cruising boats like the Queen's Birthday storm between New Zealand and Tonga/Fiji, hull shape doesn't stand out as being protective. Overall size was more a predictor of safety..
These days the 'inexperienced' passage maker is just as likely to be going on a Cat.

A CCA design boat is pretty to look at. In my experience offshore they are not comfortable or fast. (I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years). I felt a lot safer in my two other boats offshore - both relatively quick boats (J37 and an Outbound 44). In tough conditions the J could be easily sailed with a tiny amount of sail, putting really low loads on the boat and crew.

Good post, Paul, and I agree with your position wholeheartedly. It's good to hear from someone who has ocean experience in both types of vessels, for most of the outspoken adherents lack the perspective such experience offers!

It is interesting to note that the majority of people doing single handed passages in really difficult conditions these days are in very modern boats that are as far from the Cuncliffe model as it is possible to get: they are the RTW racers in open 60s, etc. They survive being driven VERY hard in the Southern Ocean. I think it fair to speculate that if sailed under more cruising parameters, they would be amongst the safest designs to ever ply the seas... perhaps not the most comfortable, though!

Jim

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Boat factories have to make their profit by building for the majority, and therefore by definition, for the "lowest common denominator". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Add to that the No Traveler discussion from last week, too.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-195461.html

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "If full keels are the way to go why are they not made today."

Let's qualify carefully :-)! It is not that "full keel" is "the way to go". Not always. Only in certain circumstances. ... those of making ocean passages, especially passages made by relatively inexperienced sailors and by singlehanders.
..
Boat factories have to make their profit by building for the majority, and therefore by definition, for the "lowest common denominator". There are obviously some who knowingly, upon consideration of sound desiderata, choose to buy the sort of boat Cunliffe contrasts to the "full keeler". A few of these very few people who buy fin'n'spade boats UPON SOUND CONSIDERATION do cross oceans in them. Quite successfully. But in those cases, tribute must be paid to the skipper and crew rather than to the boat design. Most buyers of fin'n'spade boats buy 'em cos that's wot's available in the market. A proper oozly-woozly bird it is :-)

... This article by Cunliffe is in the nature of a bone thrown to the dogs. ...

Now for any budding yachtsman with the maturity to go steady, I would recommend WoodenBoat magazine.... A good deal of the editorial content addresses matters that are of interest to ALL seafaring folk, whether they sail in stick-built boats or in those fashioned from frozen snot.
...

Pretty incredibly

These guys should know better than to buy production boats without a full Keel, specially the ones that circumnavigated many times and changed from full keel boats to those production"things".

[Stu Jackson]

One of my favorites:

https://www.amazon.ca/Desirable-Unde...hn+rousmaniere

Along with Calder's Cruisers Handbook, these discuss the details of yachts, inside and out. I found it important that both note the importance of ergonomics in both exterior and more importantly interior layouts. There are good reasons that things are arranged as they are on traditional yachts down below, regardless of the rig or keel type. Human beings' sizes haven't changed much since recreational boating came about. For example: rounded edges on settees make no sense, one can't comfortably lean against the ends if they are rounded or angled. Devil's in the details.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "A CCA design boat is pretty to look at. In my experience offshore they are not comfortable or fast. (I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years). I felt a lot safer in my two other boats offshore - both relatively quick boats (J37 and an Outbound 44). In tough conditions the J could be easily sailed with a tiny amount of sail, putting really low loads on the boat and crew."

Interesting! I promise you I'll think about it :-)

The first thought that strikes me is that the Outbound has a substantially higher S/D than does the Alberg, but even more importantly, the Outbound has less than half the D/L. The J37 lies even further from the Alberg on both parameters.

The other thought that strikes me is that with 15 years in the Alberg behind you, you, yourself, is hardly inexperienced :-)! I think we are all agreed that intrinsic differences twixt designs may, in practice, be attenuated by the competence of an experienced skipper.

Tom Cunliffe was clearly addressing your common or garden variety reader of "glossies", as he does with those YouTube jobs of his that annoy me. My annoyance notwithstanding, those YT jobs and this article have their place, IMO. I was having a little whinge earlier about our taking off on flights of exotica when a newbie asks a simple question. Cunliffe's brief, as far as I can see, is to attract new people to cruising to replace us old geezers who are dying off. I think he does that quite well. If I am right about that, I think HE is right in starting the acolytes à l'ancienne. Get 'em started in an Alberg - or a Nordic Folkboat - and before you know, they'll be sailing J37s with tiny amounts of sail and putting really low loads on the boat :-)!

TP

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

...... Get 'em started in an Alberg - or a Nordic Folkboat - and before you know, they'll be sailing J37s with tiny amounts of sail and putting really low loads on the boat :-)!

TP

If you are young and full of over enthusiasm then an old Alberg will do you fine. It did me. Mine was a 1961 and I bought it in the mid-80s. Today, you just might have a lot more fun starting with a better performing cruising boat, with a better living layout. The authors Mason 44 does not have that much useable room with 12+ft beam and 31ft waterline for a 44 ft boat. I think the engine is buried under the floor boards in those. Seems you could get the same living space in a shorter, easier to handle, more modern design.

I only commented on this thread because I suspected that those that thought the referenced article was a good, balanced article also had a bias that is different from my bias. To each his own.

[TrentePieds]

Flowers accepted :-0)!

You've done us all a service. It's the argy-bargy that educates the newbs :-)!

As for my comments about Cunliffe: He has two strikes against him: He's damn near as old as I am, and there is a certain...uhm... ethnocentricity about him. So let's forgive him ;-)

Cheers

TP

[Cool Hand Luke]

What does the author have against my Jeanneau Sun Odyssey??? I saw a photo of a Sun Odyssey 49 and I felt he was belittling it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't get this justification. The short water line, heavy, slow long keeler is appropriate for the 'inexperienced passage' maker for how long? After one ocean crossing, after two? Buying an offshore boat because you believe it will take care of you when you stop doing anything active and let it go to it's own seems to leave out the other 99.95% of the time you are offshore.
A boat that arrives three days after the more modern design has just exposed themselves to three more days of possible bad weather systems. If you look at the storms with a variety of cruising boats like the Queen's Birthday storm between New Zealand and Tonga/Fiji, hull shape doesn't stand out as being protective. Overall size was more a predictor of safety..
These days the 'inexperienced' passage maker is just as likely to be going on a Cat.

A CCA design boat is pretty to look at. In my experience offshore they are not comfortable or fast. (I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years). I felt a lot safer in my two other boats offshore - both relatively quick boats (J37 and an Outbound 44). In tough conditions the J could be easily sailed with a tiny amount of sail, putting really low loads on the boat and crew.

Paul my Spencer is a cca design and she is quite comfortable offshore and faster than many others in the same class. The islander is morc which was inspired from the cca rules. Also quite comfortable offshore both of which are also full keel with cutaway forefoot. Can't comment as to comfort on the defender ( haven't had her offshore yet. )

[robert sailor]

Wasn't that bad of an article. Sure the writer has his biases but name me a writer that is free of personal biases...they dont exist. The article as written would appeal to a new sailor that wanted to buy a reasonably priced boat for offshore use and for those on tight budgets his suggestions seemed to fit the bill. We know that some of the newer production boats have had substandard designed keel attachments and spade shudders as well so nothing wrong with that criticism.
He's sort of a very modern Pardey type...so maybe slowly changing in his later years and more than a few of us fit that bill as well.lol. I personally don't agree with all his points but so what, doesn't make it a bad article.

By the way...as far as good looks it's hard to beat that old Mason, when they have a dark hull color and fresh varnish they are a show stealer on the looks dept. Not my cup of tea but I can spot a pretty boat when I see one.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Paul my Spencer is a cca design and she is quite comfortable offshore and faster than many others in the same class. The islander is morc which was inspired from the cca rules. Also quite comfortable offshore both of which are also full keel with cutaway forefoot. Can't comment as to comfort on the defender ( haven't had her offshore yet. )

I prefer monos with lots of initial stability, ie not designs that have to heal significantly before they move. . Offshore on my ear is not comfy for me. My Alberg could also get into hobby horsing conditions when it got steep, this did nothing for comfort.k
Maybe in my next life I'll come back as a cockroach or a perhaps a Cat sailor.

[Jim Cate]

I'll come back as a cockroach or a perhaps a Cat sailor.

so, what's the difference?

(just kidding... can't resist a straight line!)

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I prefer monos with lots of initial stability, ie not designs that have to heal significantly before they move. . Offshore on my ear is not comfy for me. My Alberg could also get into hobby horsing conditions when it got steep, this did nothing for comfort.k
Maybe in my next life I'll come back as a cockroach or a perhaps a Cat sailor.

Absolutely, you describe my 25ft Top hat Primrose design. Yer it had great ultimate stability with so much weight under the water, but initial stability was a joke. Rolled like a pig and anything forward of the beam had the rail in the water.

One of the reasons I purchased that boat was articles such as the above. OK, not a bad article but obvious leading biases. An exhausted crew from constant rolling is not a crew that contributes safety to a boat. When I changed to my next boat a freedom 32 fin keel spade rudder and decent beam my world changed. I sailed faster and more comfortably.

I sailed a approximate 300 - 400nm passage mainly to windward with a group of boats, one being a Mason 33,similar size boat as my old freedom. We sailed a much larger percentage of the time, much faster and from what I could see more comfortably. We'd stopped for a swim in the Lee of an island while they soldiered on, later that day we sailed passed them. In port, one of their crew commented how we went over the waves when we passed them as they crashed through the them.