A Good Article That Addresses The Most Asked Question On This Forum

[TrentePieds]

Never heard of a TopHat before. Sailboat Data to the rescue :-) No lines given, of course, but the arrangements sketch made me instantly go "oops - we have the worst of both worlds 'ere!" Got to the footnotes and they seem to indicate that this design was really a transitional one - sort of experimental, like.

But something to think about is that once you are up to forty feet, or so, the sensible integration of desirable accommodation with desirable handling qualities is a lot easier to achieve than it is in smaller boats. I think the nether limit to length permitting a reasonable compromise is 30 feet, and even then, something has to be sacrificed. Below 30 feet you can have one or the other, but not both. Given the relationship between bux and displacement this consideration can be severe for newcomers to the avocation. For a newcomer who can spend $3/4M without feeling pain, it needn't be much of a concern, but for the man who needs to mortgage his house to spend, say, $50K, I think it really must be a concern, for in a marketplace laden with fluff he gets to make his choice aided only by brokers with clear personal financial interests in his choice.

Better that that man should have internalized Cunliffe's and your arguments, and a whole lot of others, before he makes his choice. Maybe all those years ago, before HolyMotherNet, you might have chosen something other than the TopHat if you had had more/better information available to you :-)

TP

[Cheechako]

I too think it was a good article. Especially for a common magazine that gets tons of ad money from modern production boat companies. I mentioned that article in a post recently also. Perfect article? no. But touches the right bases.

[K_V_B]

We have these discussions here time and time again. My impression is the answer to „what is the perfect blue water boat“ mostly depends on what your native language is :-)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Never heard of a TopHat before. Sailboat Data to the rescue :-) No lines given, of course, but the arrangements sketch made me instantly go "oops - we have the worst of both worlds 'ere!" Got to the footnotes and they seem to indicate that this design was really a transitional one - sort of experimental, like.

But something to think about is that once you are up to forty feet, or so, the sensible integration of desirable accommodation with desirable handling qualities is a lot easier to achieve than it is in smaller boats. I think the nether limit to length permitting a reasonable compromise is 30 feet, and even then, something has to be sacrificed. Below 30 feet you can have one or the other, but not both. Given the relationship between bux and displacement this consideration can be severe for newcomers to the avocation. For a newcomer who can spend $3/4M without feeling pain, it needn't be much of a concern, but for the man who needs to mortgage his house to spend, say, $50K, I think it really must be a concern, for in a marketplace laden with fluff he gets to make his choice aided only by brokers with clear personal financial interests in his choice.

Better that that man should have internalized Cunliffe's and your arguments, and a whole lot of others, before he makes his choice. Maybe all those years ago, before HolyMotherNet, you might have chosen something other than the TopHat if you had had more/better information available to you :-)

TP

On the other hand, we personally know one Tophat that circumnavigated some years ago, and now one of that couple's kids is doing long voyages in the same boat. A second (very young) couple got from Oz to Canada and back, having added a toddler along the way. Both couples loved their boats, crowded and stodgy as they were. Competent little craft they are, if not to my personal taste.

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

On the other hand, we personally know one Tophat that circumnavigated some years ago, and now one of that couple's kids is doing long voyages in the same boat. A second (very young) couple got from Oz to Canada and back, having added a toddler along the way. Both couples loved their boats, crowded and stodgy as they were. Competent little craft they are, if not to my personal taste.

Jim

Can they do it? Yes, definitely. BUT would you want to? After the last post I googled Top hat, I see my previous boat hickory is for sale in Tin can bay. Also I read its referred to as a family cruising yacht, really? Just because you can dosent mean it is!

Sorry just don't get it, financial situation dictates, so be it. I remember reading about Jamie, I take my hat of to him, better man than me. I've owned one, sailed one, and just wouldn't have that style boat again regardless of the "Bluewater label" that gets attached. I'd build myself a small Wharram (which I've had) and sail the world on that before I'd have a wobbly cork that hobby horses and rolls everywhere it goes (maybe a little exaggerated, but not much). But good luck to those that choose different.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "[A second (very young) couple got from Oz to Canada and back], having added a toddler along the way."

Inevitable, given the cramped quarters ;-0)!

TP

[angelfish2]

Excellent article Micado Thanks for posting the link.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "...the answer to „what is the perfect blue water boat“ mostly depends on what your native language is :-)"

Ja, natürlich :-) I very carefully avoided referring to Tom Cunliffe as "a Pom", but I thot I made it clear that I think his cultural 'eritage shows in that harticle :-)

Now, before anybody gets 'is skivvies in a twist, I'm one of the few people who half a century ago would admit to liking Brummagem. I own with no particular embarrassment that my own preferences in boats are coloured by my being an FDP - a "Former Danish Person" :-)

And, having been charged with being a "hopeless romantic" [or was that "unreconstructed :-)?], the more I think about a new tender for TP, the more I lust after a traditional Norwegian pram. With the traditional stripey squaresl rig, of course. A little tough to carry on deck in a 30-footer, but, oh! the beauty of it!

And to scupper any further talk about being "unreconstructed" I think I'd make 'er "stitch'n'glue" :-)

TP

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "...the answer to „what is the perfect blue water boat“ mostly depends on what your native language is :-)"

Ja, natürlich :-) I very carefully avoided referring to Tom Cunliffe as "a Pom", but I thot I made it clear that I think his cultural 'eritage shows in that harticle :-)
....

Yes, it is an old British sailor that has written many sail articles for Yachting Monthly and Yachting World. I guess that a good way to know if his opinion is meaningful or not is to reading his articles and see if you agree with them, like them or not.

Someone has already said on this thread: "I always find myself annoyed by Tom Cunliffe. Poor fellow can't help it :-)!" .

I don't get annoyed but even if I read for many years the magazines that published his articles I was never been able to finish one and most of the time I just ignored them.

It has all to do, not with the language one speaks, but mostly with lifestyle:

When Tom Cunliffe is not sailing is old 44 full keel boat he is driven is even older car, his old designed bike or taking care of his garden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cunliffe

Does not make my style, in boats, cars or motorcycles and even if his tastes are very British I would say that many, if not most British, have different tastes regarding all that.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by rosatte

If full keels are the way to go why are they not made today.

Because 95% of boat buyers don't need one and that is where the money is. Most folk with money for a new boat are not planning to round Cape Horn ;-) and speed in light conditions and roomy interiors are more important than heaving to in 50 knots of wind at the expense of narrow cabins and slow sailing.

The remaining 5% doing ocean crossings at high latitudes know presumably enough to not having to ask this question and are capable of choosing the right boat for themselves :-)

I am reading right now "Storm Tactics" by Lin and Larry Pardey. Super interesting. Read and inform yourselves and then make your own informed decision.

I actually respect Tom Cunliffe.. and he says it perfectly. No boat is all things to all sailors. Everything is a tradeoff. Any engineer will understand that perfectly ;-)

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

The remaining 5% doing ocean crossings at high latitudes know presumably enough to not having to ask this question and are capable of choosing the right boat for themselves :-)

And oddly enough most of those don’t go for long keels either. Steve Dashew, who believes a boat should be able to survive the worst storm imaginable preferred lightweight boats with fin keels and spade rudders...

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't get this justification. The short water line, heavy, slow long keeler is appropriate for the 'inexperienced passage' maker for how long? After one ocean crossing, after two? Buying an offshore boat because you believe it will take care of you when you stop doing anything active and let it go to it's own seems to leave out the other 99.95% of the time you are offshore.

I am prone to sea sickness and I got once really sick, really quickly.. in the space of 30 minutes I went from having a jolly good time in exciting conditions to lying on the cockpit just wishing for someone to hand me a gun to end my misery.

Based on this experience I can very well picture a situation where the crew of a boat would be exhausted after getting dealt a bad hand by the weather gods. To the point where you just have to park the boat and hope it will take care of itself cause you just physically can't anymore.

The day that happens, I am sure you would on the spot gladly spend everything you have and what you don't have just to be elsewhere.

So, is compromising the 95% of the time at anchor or on most sailing days, worth having a "safety valve" the day you get caught? that is a completely a matter of personal choice and each sailor and family decides for themselves. One experience debilitated by something like seasickness might help you make that choice. It is all I say ;-)

[EDIT] I reiterate.. Storm Tactics... from Lin & Larry Pardey.. great read

[TrentePieds]

Quote: “I actually respect Tom Cunliffe...”

And so do I. There can be no doubt about his competence. I didn't say I don't respect him, or even that I disagree with him, which it should be obvious that I don't. What I said was that he annoys me. As Polux sez – nothing to do with language at all :-)

So for a bit o' balance and perspective: The best and dearest sailing buddy I ever had was a Pom. A fellow sailing instructor in the old days, a boozer of renown and a ladies man of exceeding facility. Remember, now, that that was when Vancouver was still a village in the rainforest, and British Columbia was still truly BRITISH Columbia, a wonderfully Kiplingsque outpost of Empah. My friend, 20 or so years older than I, was, like every ex-pat Englishman I ever met in those years, a Public School Boy and had the accent to convince any colonial of it, though just which public school was his was never specified. Querying it would – don'tcha know – have been a crass piece of gaucherie. Like every ex-pat Englishman with that accent I ever met in those years, my friend had – don'tcha know – been in Alexandria with MI5. My friend was what I have always thought of as a “professional” Englishman in the Colonies :-)

Fate decreed that I should spend part of my youth in “Brummagem” – Birmingham.
The regional dialect of Danish that I spoke as a child has the same nasality and the same inflections, including “up-speak”, as do the sundry accents within the metropolis of Birmingham, and that coincidence was clearly a boon for a “DP”. Those of you who are English need not be told that there are two Englands, and never the twain shall meet. Draw a line from Ipswich to Fishguard. South of that line is one England, one culture. North of that is another England, another culture entirely. Tom Cunliffe is, if not by birth, then certainly by acculturation, a southerner. I am by acculturation a northerner.

So now you know why TC annoys TP, even while TP respects TC ;-)!

Cheers!

TP

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by crankysailor

I am prone to sea sickness and I got once really sick, really quickly.. in the space of 30 minutes I went from having a jolly good time in exciting conditions to lying on the cockpit just wishing for someone to hand me a gun to end my misery.

Based on this experience I can very well picture a situation where the crew of a boat would be exhausted after getting dealt a bad hand by the weather gods. To the point where you just have to park the boat and hope it will take care of itself cause you just physically can't anymore.

The day that happens, I am sure you would on the spot gladly spend everything you have and what you don't have just to be elsewhere.

So, is compromising the 95% of the time at anchor or on most sailing days, worth having a "safety valve" the day you get caught? that is a completely a matter of personal choice and each sailor and family decides for themselves. One experience debilitated by something like seasickness might help you make that choice. It is all I say ;-)

[EDIT] I reiterate.. Storm Tactics... from Lin & Larry Pardey.. great read

Cranky
I am pretty personally experienced with seas sickness. I am very prone to it. . The motion that causes seasickness is very dependent on the individual. Some get sick quickly with small, choppy, sharp seas. Others loose it with gentle swells. Some can't handle the motion of a Cat in seas. I"ve already listed the boats I've owned and sailed offshore on this thread. If I had to pick one that caused me the most seasick developing motion it would be the Alberg 35. I think this was due to the uncomfortableness of excessive heal. Either way, for me Stugeron is God's gift - no matter what boat I am on offshore.

As far as Pardy',s Storm Tactics goes, I'm not clear how that applies to this thread. No matter what boat you are in if you are caught in a storm then you will need some tactics. The Pardy' book is very centered on using a large parachute sea anchor off the bow. There are many more options and approaches than this. Take a read of the free download, poorly edited, Dashew book Surviving the Storm. It has a much broader and interesting view of storm tactics.

[Don C L]

"The only way to be sure how a boat behaves in such conditions is to demand a test sail on a windy day, find some rough water, over-canvas the boat on purpose and see how she behaves."

That one jumped out at me... good idea, but what owner would agree to that? And what novice buyer wold be able to judge it? This is where it is useful to have crewed on all your friends' boats, deliveries, races in rough weather to see your preference in naval architecture...

It might be useful to point out that not all "long keels" are cut from the same roving. And "CCA" covers some fairly different hull designs and displacements. I think the Hughes 38 was a CCA boat and that is not at all like a Tahiti Ketch!