A step up from an O'Day 19?

[Snowdog2]

Manateeman,
I had a swing keel solid iron (1000 lbs) on a Chrysler 26. Never had a problem. ... but if I had, it would have been expensive for sure. Never had a lifting keel (I actually have never heard of one before!). The parker 235 had a nice layout, large cockpit, and great draft with keel up. Since I can't access one it won't matter. They seem to be popular, many that had been listed are sold in europe.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^

There are literally tens of thousands of small (20-26 foot) trailer sailors with swing keels happily sailing around. Mostly they don't have issues such as you are worried about.

When I had a Catalina 22 many years ago I dropped the keel for de-rusting and painting, and to improve the original seals where the pivot bolt went through the case.

IIRC that one weighed around 600 lbs and I managed to get it in and out on my own, with the boat jacked up over t he trailer... but that was over 40 years ago, so the details have disappeared from memory.

At any rate, IMO having a swing keel is not a good reason to exclude a trailer-sailor design from consideration. Lifting keels, on the other hand, are complicated in design and engineering, expensive and more prone to problems as a result... them I would question!

Jim

[Manateeman]

Iron Swing keels or Retractable keels. They are not centerboards. The history of devices which reduce leeway such as centerboards or leeboards begins with fishermen who like the original poster, had a very shallow harbor or huge range of tides. Probably the Dutch, but I’m not certain. I not only like the simplicity of working fishermen designed vessels, I have the utmost respect for the intelligence behind these proven concepts. I built a fairly large wood centerboard cat and did the lofting for the first Marshall catboat. The centerboards were heavy but the weight was only sufficient to keep them lowered. These were not swing keels and had none of the drawbacks which I detailed in my last post.
So specifically, the issue I see is seaworthiness. The pin fails and the keel goes and you quickly have a very unstable vessel. It isn’t a catboat where beam keeps you upright. The pennant /pendant fails and the keel drops. What do you do then wait for high tide? Please, the facts are simple. The swing keel was a marketing gimmick to sell boats to fit on trailers or sail in shallow waters and the fact lots of people got to buy a cheap boat ...which proves...commercial boat builders cater to the market. Fools and their money are soon separated. I gave my recommendations to the OP. His choice. He can review my credentials or anyone’s and take those into consideration or ignore them. For example, there was a large aluminum expedition vessel built by someone who decided to use a large, heavy swing keel. A sailor who I respect. We talked about all the issues. For his project it was a cost / risk question. The cost of twin keels was simply too high for a commercial vessel. He knew the risk . As a professional, I try to present all the facts and address all the positive and negatives. Perhaps some do not agree but their arguments are usually, ad hominem, unsubstantiated, indirection or anecdotal. Each to his own. Till then...
Happy trails to you.
Mark, an actually experienced manatee

[dmdelorme]

My first boat was a Tanzer 26 on Lake Winnipeg. Nice size, quick and easy to handle. Points well. tough and cheap and looks good. I race last year in one for the first time in Gibsons Landing it beat every boat every race that year. Almost all have an outboards. CS 28 is also a nice solid boat.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Iron Swing keels or Retractable keels. They are not centerboards. The history of devices which reduce leeway such as centerboards or leeboards begins with fishermen who like the original poster, had a very shallow harbor or huge range of tides. Probably the Dutch, but I’m not certain. I not only like the simplicity of working fishermen designed vessels, I have the utmost respect for the intelligence behind these proven concepts. I built a fairly large wood centerboard cat and did the lofting for the first Marshall catboat. The centerboards were heavy but the weight was only sufficient to keep them lowered. These were not swing keels and had none of the drawbacks which I detailed in my last post.
So specifically, the issue I see is seaworthiness. The pin fails and the keel goes and you quickly have a very unstable vessel. It isn’t a catboat where beam keeps you upright. The pennant /pendant fails and the keel drops. What do you do then wait for high tide? Please, the facts are simple. The swing keel was a marketing gimmick to sell boats to fit on trailers or sail in shallow waters and the fact lots of people got to buy a cheap boat ...which proves...commercial boat builders cater to the market. Fools and their money are soon separated. I gave my recommendations to the OP. His choice. He can review my credentials or anyone’s and take those into consideration or ignore them. For example, there was a large aluminum expedition vessel built by someone who decided to use a large, heavy swing keel. A sailor who I respect. We talked about all the issues. For his project it was a cost / risk question. The cost of twin keels was simply too high for a commercial vessel. He knew the risk . As a professional, I try to present all the facts and address all the positive and negatives. Perhaps some do not agree but their arguments are usually, ad hominem, unsubstantiated, indirection or anecdotal. Each to his own. Till then...
Happy trails to you.
Mark, an actually experienced manatee

My, what a diatribe!

You claim, likely with justification, to have heaps of experience as a boat builder, and I respect that. You imply that swing keels (and yes, I do understand the difference between them and centerboards and leeboards) are unseaworthy. I would then expect that you have chosen to not own or sail such a yacht, and thus might lack personal experience with them.

I, on the other hand, am an "actually experienced" swing keel boat owner/sailor/racer/cruiser. My area of experience was mostly the semi-harsh conditions in SF Bay, with the occasional foray into the Pacific and the Channel Islands and the Canadian Gulf islands. Racing for some years in the Slot in SFB, where the winds were routinely >25 kts and sometimes a bit more. Anyhow, I never had a keel failure (other than rust) nor did any of the many others in our one-design fleet. I believe (as apparently do thousands of others) that various swing keel boats would meet his requirements just fine

Now you might have noted that the OP isn't looking for a blue water boat, or a coastal cruising boat, or a racing boat. He wants one to potz around in his local waters as he does now, only in a bit more comfort. Good plan, sez I. The Stone Horse (and I agree that it is pretty) might just be a little more boat and a lot more money than he really needs to have or to spend. And yes, a cat boat might suit him well... I'm not knowledgeable about them and won't offer an opinion as to their suitability.

So, I'll bow out now, unless there is some specific question that I could help with. Seems that civil conversations with a manatee are difficult to maintain.

Jim (an actually experienced cruiser, sailor and owner of a few boats, but inexperienced in manateeism. Around these parts we have dugongs instead).

[Don C L]

That Stonehorse suggestion got me thinking. I really like the look of those too but I think I might go even more traditional and even in wood. You have so many beautiful boats in your area. A gaff rigged sloop with a long sprit I think, maybe a sharpie if it’s really shallow. I have had this photo for over 45 years of a little boat moored in an estuary and it inspired me as a kid. It still hangs on my bulkhead. I don’t know where it is or what design it is, but that’s what i’d look for.
... well the photo didn’t come out too well, but you get the idea

[Manateeman]

Swing keels and lift keels are unseaworthy. That is a statement, not something I implied. A statement from a boatbuilder who has worked for a half dozen OEM companies and is qualified as a USCG vessel safety expert.
It is a statement by a Professional sailor who holds a current Merchant Mariners Credential with a sail endorsement.
I detailed the specific risks these keels pose and you counter that their safety is proven by the number of boats sailing with them. The flaw in this arguement is similar to what parents say to children “don’t do what I do...do what I say”.
The fallacy of logic is exclusion validation wherein a large set of positive facts claim to invalidate a smaller set of negatives. Example. Lots of people smoke so lung cancer is not a risk from smoking. Lots of people have swing / lift keels so they are nothing to worry about. Lots of people have fin keels. Again, in my opinion...not seaworthy. Fast. Cheap to build. Easier to sell. Just not as safe.
So this well dressed gentlemen walks in and I ask him about his current boat while his sons look over a “racer cruiser” . Aberking and Rasmussen he says.
Nice boat so why do you want this X boat. I don’t want it, the kids do. So I told him to hang on to his old boat. A few weeks later I see the X boat back in the factory. It’s a total. I told him...even if we give you all the interior parts and all the materials and the shop guys do it in their free time, it’s a total loss.
They hit a ledge and the fin came up through the bottom. He had money and could walk away but I bet he still has his old boat. He was shocked but no one died. So fin keels are ok just don’t hit anything under sail.
What sells is fast and cheaply built. Go to an IBEX show...it’s all about building speed and saving money...boat speed, conveniences of home. It’s a discrace because there is no real safety regulation in the industry. Aircraft...a whole different matter in both construction, repair, maintenance and license to fly. Even experimental aircraft have to follow rules.
You have stated my posts are a bizarre manifesto and diatribe. OK. This is not an ad hominem?
Manatees and Dugongs are both Sirenia.
I wrote part of the Federal law protecting manatees.
I didn’t understand your comments on them.
Captain Mark, a very content manatee

[Snowdog2]

I've always heard that if one wants to go bluewater a fixed keel is much safer, however, for myself, a bay sailor, I find the swing keel is just fine. If I were to decide to say sail to the Caribbean, I would hesitate with a swing keel boat, not due to personal knowledge, but due to the consistent suggestion that it would be more difficult and not as safe. When one is out to sea conditions can get very unpredictable. When one sails locally, difficult situations tend to be avoidable by not going out.

[Don C L]

Forgive me if I missed it but I presume you are not thinking of boats with centerboards like the Bermuda 40 in that swing keel group?

[Manateeman]

When I am asked about the finest aluminum yacht builders KM in the Netherlands is where I would send someone. They have built some very seaworthy vessels.
High latitude commercial vessels which require shallow draft face a tough decision. Ballasted centerboards or twin keels. The designers, the builders and the operators are fully aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both...even with the utmost attention to detail, centerboards have a risk factor not present in fixed keels. Jammed in the up or down position, the captain must consider the change in stability and draft. It can be a minor annoyance or a significant problem. Twin keels have no such potential problems. I’m not going to take the risk although many are willing. The increased cost of twin keels is often a factor.
Pointing to the success of a center board yacht design does not obliviate the risk inherent in that design. Things that weigh a lot and can move even a small amount, have a funny way of going in a different direction from that of the vessel.
I think you asked if I felt all ballasted centerboards are unseaworthy. Yes, I do.
Fin keels and spade rudders...the same. My definition of seaworth obviously differs from yours and...what of it. As I have posted before on more than one occasion. There is no perfect vessel design, no perfect method of construction, no perfect material. OK?
Happy trails to you kimosabi.
Mark, a very happy manatee.