Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

[psk125]

Just found a thread about three people involved with a boat in the Bay of Fos, off southern France in bad weather. One, hypothermic, was picked off a buoy. A second was rescued from the boat. The third has not been found. Fog and heavy seas hampered rescue operations with helicopters and SAR vessels.

[wolfgal]

Hi!

years ago, i came up with a plan like yours and have been jumping through the hoops ever since. it takes a lot of work and determination, a lot, and i'm still working hard to get there. so bravo for your dream but please do not just go for it.

the folks here who have warned you of this and that are absolutely right, absolutely

-one doesn't find a good sailboat at that price for sale in the med. everything is expensively over-priced over here, very. you get a lot of crap BECAUSE it is in the med. if you bring a USA-made vessel over, you can have difficulty selling it as it needs to be imported (costly business) before it can be sold to a EU citizen

-in france, one must pass the coastal permit to hug coastlines here; you need the offshore permit to hop over a bit of sea (and they do stop you to ask for it and then fine you along the way if you cheat), and a river permit to do the canals. the ICC is necessary in most places, including italy

-insurance companies... how much they quote you depends but they do tend to calculate in your sea-miles and qualifications when assessing the risk involved in having you at the helm. some go with just liability, but those some tend to have salty bones

-the Med is rough in the winter, super cold too. folks hunker down in sicily and morocco and places like that. the winds and waves get wild! folks i've met sailing the med say they prefer crossing the atlantic than dealing with messy seas

-the canal du midi closes for a long winter; and, when open, does involve a few administrative hoops: you need to pay for the vignette and whatnot. it can get dead hot! you'd need more than a month, maybe two?, to cross southern france

-the bay of biscay - oh dear! i crewed on a delivery with the best delivery captain out there (yups!). thank goodness, or else i wouldn't be here anymore. this is no place to take your sweetheart and hope she doesn't leave you...

what would i suggest? make a five-year plan with your sweetheart
-take a safety-at-sea course. there are excellent ones in the SF area
-join a yacht-club
-work on other folks boats and get handy, mega handy! learn to fix anything and everything on the boat! it is good fun!
-for a taste of Europe, do RYA training courses in either Greece (for a mellow start) or Gibralta (for a bit more ambitious). the RYA folk i've done classes with have been great! you are usually on a 40-some boat with a few other people, and it can be a fantastic experience. with the Dayskipper licence, you can get an ICC card

if you and your sweetheart crew on other boats (learn to cook ), then you can learn a whole lot and enjoy the company of other sailors. although being on a boat with others is like being in a pressure cooker, overall the sailing community is a fantastic community. even though i have tried, i've never enjoyed landlubbers like i've enjoyed people of the sea

good luck to you!

wolfgal

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

Hi!

-one doesn't find a good sailboat at that price for sale in the med. everything is expensively over-priced over here, very.

You can have difficulty selling it as it needs to be imported (costly business) before it can be sold to a EU citizen

-in France, one must pass the coastal permit to hug coastlines here; you need the offshore permit to hop over a bit of sea

Are you sure? you didn't like either of the yachts I linked to then. I think they are US buying a yacht in Europe. The VAT will either already be paid or due at the point of sale by a charter company, so selling again in the EU shouldn't be a problem.

Are you sure France requires a "coastal permit" for US citizens?

Agreed on the weather in winter and the Midi isn't really suitable for a fin keel over 1m in depth, likely frozen or empty in the winter too.

The one problem will be the 90 day stay they get in a Schenzen country unless they apply for an extension.

Pete

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Are you sure? you didn't like either of the yachts I linked to then. I think they are US buying a yacht in Europe. The VAT will either already be paid or due at the point of sale by a charter company, so selling again in the EU shouldn't be a problem.

Are you sure France requires a "coastal permit" for US citizens?

Agreed on the weather in winter and the Midi isn't really suitable for a fin keel over 1m in depth, likely frozen or empty in the winter too.

The one problem will be the 90 day stay they get in a Schenzen country unless they apply for an extension.

Pete

Hey Pete,

ah, you are surely right about the permits! sometimes i forget that i am also an EU citizen, and thus must have the permits, jump the hoops, pay the taxes... it is wonderful having double nationality, but it also requires me to jump loads of hoops! and France is great at making hoola-hoops!

in any case, it is important that these folks know the rules of the road (at sea, in the canals, rivers - the rules do differ). not knowing them can lead to misadventures, mistakes that can be both dangerous and costly for themselves and others. doing RYA courses will allow them to take a big, enjoyable step. RYA also offers a marine radio course. it takes a weekend: read the book, practice with a radio, pass the test, give them a photo of you... and you have it

and yes, Schenzen is something they seriously need to consider... the rules and regs over here are toughening on all fronts. they need to do the research.

as for the boats... admittedly, i did not look at the ones you suggested. my perspective comes through research i've done over the last five years so is based on personal experience only. because i'm a boat nut, i compare a lot (different types of boats in the states vs boats over here) and have concluded that there are many, many, many well-maintained, well-equipped, solid-n-salty boats to be had for a fair price in the states (and elsewhere) with an equivalent that tends to cost much more in Europe, and especially, the Med. maybe you found excellent examples: they should check them out.

this could be useful: there are americans who sail US boats over to Europe and then go home, putting the boat up for sale. these folks quickly find that EU citizens cannot buy their boats because the importation process (CE inspection) is so strident and expensive (EU citizens are required to import a foreign-made boat). However, these non-ce boats can be bought by a US citizen in Europe and either sailed home or sold again to another non-EU citizen. (this has nothing to do with VAT, do not confuse).

there is a lovely Baba in Greece on YW that is in this predicament. it is sitting at the dock waiting for a non-EU citizen to buy it... surely because the engine is old and would require changing so to pass the emission test part of the CE inspection.

There are many, many more of boats that are not CE-inpsected for sale in Turkey. If I was not a European, i'd look for a boat with this profile.

wolfgal

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

in any case, it is important that these folks know the rules of the road (at sea, in the canals, rivers - the rules do differ).

and yes, Schenzen is something they seriously need to consider... the rules and regs over here are toughening on all fronts. they need to do the research.

wolfgal

Yes I think these will be the deciding factors and the Schenzen thing, just wonder if they know how much studying they have ahead to be competent in 10 months time? its that sailing to a time table thing again.

Schenzen? well that could affect me in a months time, though I am hoping for some massive fudge to enable folk to move about.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

... there are americans who sail US boats over to Europe and then go home, putting the boat up for sale. these folks quickly find that EU citizens cannot buy their boats because the importation process (CE inspection) is so strident and expensive (EU citizens are required to import a foreign-made boat).

Not necessarily the case. CE and national registration ( flagging) requirements in the EU very much depend on the size of the boat.
In Italy, boats under 10 meters are exempt, in Spain boats 8 meters or less are also exempt from flagging and, thus, need not be CE certified. Not sure if in the UK CE is even required for the Small Ships Registry nor what the size limits are in other EU countries but, clearly, 10 meter or smaller US built boats may not necessarily face the CE issue when sold to an EU national.

Another reason to go small...9 -10 meters is probably the most popular boat size for local EU sailors. High quality, well preserved ones sell like hotcakes.

[boatman61]

In the UK CE compliance is required if you wish to sell an imported boat.. Started August 2005.
I had a Hunter 37 I had sailed over from the States that year.. when I went to list her on a brokerage in 2007 I was told they could not sell her without her being VAT Paid and CE compliant.
Another thing I have notice in Europe is that surveyors seem reluctant to pass boats for further than 60 miles offshore these past few years.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Not necessarily the case. CE and national registration ( flagging) requirements in the EU very much depend on the size of the boat.
In Italy, boats under 10 meters are exempt, in Spain boats 8 meters or less are also exempt from flagging and, thus, need not be CE certified. Not sure if in the UK CE is even required for the Small Ships Registry nor what the size limits are in other EU countries but, clearly, 10 meter or smaller US built boats may not necessarily face the CE issue when sold to an EU national.

Another reason to go small...9 -10 meters is probably the most popular boat size for local EU sailors. High quality, well preserved ones sell like hotcakes.

Hi Greg,

please tell me where you got this info about smaller boats not being required to be CE-proofed. i've been reading about ce-compliance for a while now, with my eye on smaller boats, and have never read or heard of this anywhere.

as for the popularity of the 10 metre boat in the Med: this has a whole lot to do with marina fees as, for many a sailor, 10 metres is the cut-off mark between doable and expensive.

and yes, well-preserved ones do sell like hotcakes: remember that contessa 32 in spain that popped up for sale on CF last April? it sold in three to four weeks!


wolfgal

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by boatman61

In the UK CE compliance is required if you wish to sell an imported boat.. Started August 2005.
I had a Hunter 37 I had sailed over from the States that year.. when I went to list her on a brokerage in 2007 I was told they could not sell her without her being VAT Paid and CE compliant.
Another thing I have notice in Europe is that surveyors seem reluctant to pass boats for further than 60 miles offshore these past few years.

Speaking of excellent delivery captains!

Yes, Boatie, CE importation regs are becoming enforced even in the UK now. If the boat is not imported already, the Brokers simply get the buyer to tick off a box at the end of his little contract that says that he has informed the buyers that the boat is not ce-inspected. that's it! there is no warning as to what ensues! and yes, when they check this box, the buyers have the problem. remember that game, hot potato?

some consequences of not legally importing one's boat: in germany, boats get turned away. in france, they get impounded (the hassle-man awaits you!). depending on the situation (and the mood of the guy with the law-in-pocket), there are fines up to 50K and 3 years imprisonment. and even if one does not get asked for proof in some places like spain very often, if the boat is not officially imported, one's insurance company can turn around and say, sorry, we are not covering your claim... or sorry, we will not cover you at all.

yet, if one can prove that the boat was in europe or a european country (of that time - so maritinque, guadeloupe and other places count) before the cut off date... cannot remember it now, will check, the boat is considered CE-exempt. for this, one needs the real stuff: like the log book, haul-out and work receipts, marina receipts... the problem with this is that, even though a boat owner can show this proof and then apply for a CE-exemption certificate (for 390£), the certificate itself is not considered official... Maybe too many people cheated and so they decided not to issue/respect, no idea. in any case, Europe is being suffocated by its own red tape!

as for the UK and Brexit, word is that the UK RCD abides by the CE regs and will continue to do so even after brexit (got this tidbit from a top-notch ce-inspector). for the brave souls out there, the place to go with inspections is: CEproof Consultancy Services – CEproof


wolfgal

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by boatman61

In the UK CE compliance is required if you wish to sell an imported boat.. Started August 2005..

That's interesting info boatman. Makes we wonder what "imported" means. Was the Hunter you were selling already registered in the UK Small Ships Registry (SSR) even though she was not CE compliant? Or was registry in the SSR not possible either for you (as the importer) or a potential UK buyer UNLESS the boat is CE compliant?

I'm curious because when I bought my present US made boat, the British seller had her in the SSR and subsequently had to provide a deletion from registry in the sale process. Notably, he sold the boat in Spain and it had never been in UK waters.

And Wolfgal,

As for Spain, I got the info from a law firm specializing in EU maritime law. They had articles on the net regarding this issue and also confirmed by email.

As I understand it, CE compliance is a requirement for national registration ( flagging). In Spain, it is not compulsory to flag a vessel 8 meter or less in length, thus, CE compliance is not an issue with boats that are not registered.

Have been told by an Italian sailor that the same situation exists in Italy with the exemption length being less than 10 meters. Perhaps an Italian forum member can chime in on this.

Interesting to add, that though my present boat does not have CE compliance, it was registered in the UK by the previous owner, and in Germany by the owner before him.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Greg K

And Wolfgal,

As for Spain, I got the info from a law firm specializing in EU maritime law. They had articles on the net regarding this issue and also confirmed by email.

As I understand it, CE compliance is a requirement for national registration ( flagging). In Spain, it is not compulsory to flag a vessel 8 meter or less in length, thus, CE compliance is not an issue with boats that are not registered.

Have been told by an Italian sailor that the same situation exists in Italy with the exemption length being less than 10 meters. Perhaps an Italian forum member can chime in on this.

Interesting to add, that though my present boat does not have CE compliance, it was registered in the UK by the previous owner, and in Germany by the owner before him.

this is interesting info... never ever came across this before.

will look into it, thank you!

[De.windhoos]

Originally Posted by srhaas

Hi Worldly Sailors!

I am new to this forum and sailing in general. Growing up in the Midwest gave me some experience sailing x boats and 420's, but aside from that I haven't had any skipping experience myself.

The reason I am on this forum is because my girlfriend and I have decided to take a sabbatical beginning next October, starting in Italy and sailing to Denmark (not in a rush). Time aligns with a wedding we will be attending in Italy and we are deciding to buy a one way ticket and sort things out once we get there.

1. We are looking to buy a inexpensive boat $15,000-$30,000 between 9m-11m and aside from that have little knowledge of boats or makes. I have done a bit of preliminary searching and the Endeavour 37 looks like something that may run a bit high on our price range, but is a good fit for what we are looking for. Does anyone have advice for a resilient low cost boat that may fit our budget? We would plan to resell the boat in Denmark or wherever we end up.

2. I also know that the winter in the Med is not the most ideal, but are there any recommendations for areas that may be more friendly to a crew looking to get their feet wet? Since we will be on the East Coast of Italy we figure the Adriatic would be an option.

3. We are beginning to do our research, but would love any recommendations for books that may provide greater insight!

Any responses are greatly appreciated!

This is winter in the Med.

[Laurie watson]

One word of advice, be careful who you take advice from. The Meltemi for instance is a Summer wind, mainly from late June to late August, not a winter wind at all

[windlass79]

"(There's) no such thing as a stupid question" is a popular phrase with a long history. It suggests that the quest for knowledge includes failure, and that just because one person may know less than others they should not be afraid to ask rather than pretend they already know. In many cases multiple people may not know, but are too afraid to ask the "stupid question"; the one who asks the question may in fact be doing a service to those around them.

[marcello66]

Hi there, Italian, living in east side, Adriatic Sea.
Sailing from here to north looks a very ambitious task, and unless you’re a really experienced sailor I would not recommend.
Sailing via the channels can be an option, and sounds really interesting and most of all SAFE.
Here winter is a bit challenging, temperatures are low, sea is cold...in few words...unpleasant.
So, roughly, if you want to plan the described trip consider to start from Adriatic Sea, sail to Croatia and enjoy beautiful sea and hundreds of islands, then skip Albania and go directly to Greece. Once there....is paradise. Then I would reach Black Sea, take the mast down and sail the Danube river (the biggest in Europe) up to north. It’s a big trip, also you will motor counter currents, but is feasible.
Other option is reaching north via French channels.
I could write pages about the med.
so feel free to ask more details once you have more clear ideas.
Concerning the boat...here the used market is very lively, so you can get good deals with the amount you want to spend.