Amel 50 vs. Garcia 52 vs. Discovery 48

[poiu]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

If you ask nicely, I am sure KM Yachtbuilders would make you a smaller version .

I think they must be busy. They don’t want to talk to me.

[Finn77]

Originally Posted by ol1970

I hope our paths do cross one of these days as I’m always happy to learn from those who’ve been there and done it! One of the reasons I lean towards a monohull is the whole concept of buying as much boat as you need to be comfortable and safe and not too much more. A well thought out mono utilizes the space a couple would really need much better than a cat. We’ve only spent approximately 2 months aboard various monohulls at this point in our sailing resume and about the same amount on cats. We see the advantage of both. I do find it fascinating that the knowledgeable people on this do not think a new Amel, HR, Discovery, or Oyster is a viable blue water cruiser when there are hundreds of them out there successfully doing it. Kraken is definitely an interesting choice, but other than that it would seem that I’m putting my family’s life in jeopardy doing any sort of crossing.

We are like sponges right now trying to gain as much knowledge and experience as possible. I’ll definitely keep the people on the forum informed as we progress. I am 100 percent positive our decision will piss off somebody and be ridiculed as the stupidest decision ever…that’s what the internet is for right!

If you want to know more about the Kraken design and principles and see it in action you can watch the last 7 videos on Youtube channel Millenial Falcon https://www.youtube.com/c/SailingMil...lFalcon/videos

[goboatingnow]

I do find it fascinating that the knowledgeable people on this do not think a new Amel, HR, Discovery, or Oyster is a viable blue water cruiser when there are hundreds of them out there successfully doing it.

Armchair sailors or those with endless budgets engage in a form of min/maxing looking for everything perfect in the perfect yacht that will protect an idiot who can’t sail from himself.

The fact is as you rightly observe all these yachts and Bennys, Bavs and so forth are meanwhile crossing oceans and sailing all around the waters of lots of countries quite happily.

Sure , if you’ve 2 million or more at your disposal , you can spec out a custom boat providing of course you and only you know what your priorities are. But if so what are you doing here. Pay a NA to advise you and get building.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by ol1970

My reason for so strongly considering a monohull is we have family in Sweden that live right on a fjord right up from Ellos where the HR factory is. It is some of the most beautiful sailing grounds in the world and much more friendly to monos than cats. I'd really like to spend time in that region and the Mediterranean while her parents are still a little younger and could join us here and there, plus be able to anchor in front of their home from time to time.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

But if you are considering a Cat for the future, is there something that actually precludes the Cat from cruising in that area initially?

I posted this question earlier for the OP but didn't receive a reply.

So for everyone else following this thread and familiar with Baltic cruising:

... is there something that actually precludes a Catamaran from cruising in that area?

I realise that Catamarans are not as common up there, marina berths and haulout facilities might be more scarce, etc, but what else? Anything else?

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I posted this question earlier for the OP but didn't receive a reply.

So for everyone else following this thread and familiar with Baltic cruising:

... is there something that actually precludes a Catamaran from cruising in that area?

I realise that Catamarans are not as common up there, marina berths and haulout facilities might be more scarce, etc, but what else? Anything else?

The North Sea is frequently a challenging place to sail. Colder temps and high seas - these are not ideal conditions for a cat. Heavier monohulls are more appropriate and hence common there and also many of the most prestigious builders: HR, Najad, Swan, Swedish, Contest and many smaller builders - for the same reason.

Also, docking at most of these areas - actually along the entire west coast of Europe, the Baltics etc is limited in width, some waterways are very narrow.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Also, docking at most of these areas - actually along the entire west coast of Europe, the Baltics etc is limited in width, some waterways are very narrow.

This I can understand.

Originally Posted by DeValency

The North Sea is frequently a challenging place to sail. Colder temps and high seas - these are not ideal conditions for a cat.

This not so much.

With the qualification that it should be the 'right' type of catamaran of course, just as it should be the right type of monohull (there are plenty of light, sporty, monhulls too which may not be appropriate for colder temps and high seas).

But I haven't really seen a really appropriate reason yet, specific to a catamaran, that would preclude cruising there.

Afterall we aren't talking about way up into the ice, just Baltic Scandanavian type cruising.

I'm starting to think that it may be more about what boats have traditionally frequented that area, and that Cats tend to head for sunnier climes, rather any distinct "it's not possible" type of reason.

But I'm open to learn more.

[DeValency]

In my former post a number of the North Sea
builders were listed. If you understand the difference between these boats and the common Mediterranean popular light boats (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse etc.) all nice boats but less suitable for the North Sea, you should get the point.

As for cats; you can spend $5M on a super high class bullet proof aluminium/steel Cat as a super relatively safe blue ocean vessel but it will still be extremely uncomfortable and at times unsafe sailing in the common challenging conditions up there, simply because of the basics of a cat design vs a medium displacement mono. It is not the typical floating craft over snorkelling areas in the Caribbean or fun summer times in the Med.

The North Sea sailors - the Scandinavian and the Dutch are the most experienced ocean sailors for hundreds of years. They forgot things about ocean cruising most of us will never even learn.

[wkg]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

But I haven't really seen a really appropriate reason yet, specific to a catamaran, that would preclude cruising there.

And - the last not the least - close reaching is very frequently required on Baltic and North Sea, not to mention English Channel with tides up to 10 meters (St Malo) and tidal flows > 10 knt. You need a yacht not a toy in our regions.

Btw - try to fit cat here https://mapio.net/images-p/3536393.jpg

[jmh2002]

Judging by the replies so far (replies, not answers) it seems that it was a mistake to ask this question in this thread.

That's a pity, but it is the Monohull section, so ok not to worry.

[wkg]

No, no ... it's just a mistake to use unproper tools for the job. You got very clear answers.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wkg

I sailed few HR and love them. 31, 34, 342, 37 and 40. Sure, that 50 is more fun to sail. But it's not a real blue water cruiser any more. It's a luxury, very luxury performance cruiser with not protected rudders and vulnerable thrusters useless in strong breeze in ports. New HR-s are perfect in Europe and USA where SAR and Coast Guard are near and professional but fixing a rudder in remote destination can be really difficult.

I would take a closer look ad Kraken 50 with encapsulated ballast and three bearings, skeg hung rudder for $1.0M

We've been around this house on this board a few times before, but the prejudice against spade rudders is, to an engineer, just silly. Spade rudders are much more efficient and can be made just as strong as any other type. Dashew's fabulous world cruising boats all have spade rudders, as do all of the rugged metal ice-class expedition boats made by KM Yachts in the Netherlands.



And the rare prejudice against externally ballasted keels -- seriously?



I do agree, however, that the latest HR boats are not as rugged as the older ones are and are more oriented to marina-to-marina coastal cruising than to anything long distance or remote. But that's true of almost all series produced cruisers made today. Even the new Amels are more coastal than they used to be -- where are the handholds in the salon?? And the Garcia doesn't have a dedicated nav table?? Really??? None of them has the deck storage and technical space you need for real remote cruising. I'm afraid if you want a boat well suited for that kind of thing, you have to build custom.

[goboatingnow]

I suspect there are far more HRs floating around the Med then on the North Sea actually

Don’t forget Bavaria , Delphia etc all all based in northern Europe too as is Beneteau

It’s got nothing to do with the North Sea that HR build what they do. HR cannot compete on Swedish costs with the mass producers hence it has differentiated itself by aiming at the BMW end of the market

Most of that market has actually failed financially , Naiad is gone along with several others.

Again go around the Baltic and nearby seas the vast majority of boats are the usual high volume production boats happily sailing around “ the North Sea “ etc

By all means chase down the UniMog of boats but don’t forget that UniMogs are great in extremis and awful to drive the other 99% of the time. !!!!

[wkg]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We've been around this house on this board a few times before, but the prejudice against spade rudders is, to an engineer, just silly. Spade rudders are much more efficient and can be made just as strong as any other type. Dashew's fabulous world cruising boats all have spade rudders, as do all of the rugged metal ice-class expedition boats made by KM Yachts in the Netherlands.

This is not only the issue of strength of spade rudders but also a strength of the hull around. If the rudder and rudder shaft are too strong than can damage the hull in case of grounding - that's why skeg helps. As an engineer I can only tell, that protected rudders (IP, Boreal ...) are much more safe.

But yes - you're right - not so efficient. Definitely not for racers.

Rugged metal ice-class expedition boats made by KM Yachts or Boreal have all the rudder compartment watertight - the same Boreal so please do not compare with Hallbergs

Moreover - I wrote about port maneuvering with twin rudders and one propeller and retrecable stern thruster - kind of a joke while serious cruising.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And the rare prejudice against externally ballasted keels -- seriously?

Have nothing against externally bolted keels - really. Just a nice feature (not must have) of Kraken. 1/2 a price of Hallberg.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do agree, however, that the latest HR boats are not as rugged as the older ones are and are more oriented to marina-to-marina coastal cruising than to anything long distance or remote. But that's true of almost all series produced cruisers made today. Even the new Amels are more coastal than they used to be -- where are the handholds in the salon??

That's exactly what I say.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And the Garcia doesn't have a dedicated nav table?? Really???

Never said. It has far from the helm, close to the bow. The chartplotter is hard to reach in Garcia and - if a helmsman wants to have a look at it must run whole yacht in wet oilskins. Isn't it silly ?

Boreal - in turn - has nav table located in perfect place in pilothouse.

Moreover - I would not recommend a boat without the righting moment published (Ovni, Garcia) for serious cruising.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

None of them has the deck storage and technical space you need for real remote cruising.

It's always an issue. But - imho - not for a couple cruising in 50 foot boat. I hope even 44 is enough - this is my budget limit

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm afraid if you want a boat well suited for that kind of thing, you have to build custom.

Hmmm ... I thing, that Boreal tick most of the boxes. I asked for critique of this boat but no answers

Know nothing about Discovery.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Don’t forget Bavaria , Delphia etc all all based in northern Europe too as is Beneteau

Delphia is sold to Bavaria (i Guess) long time ago I sailed 4 Delphia's including 40.3 "Polska Miedź" after her solo circumnavigation. Very strong hulls, partly steel design, Kubota diesel ... Poor bow rollers fitting, poor fridge (always opening ) but the rest very fine imho.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

By all means chase down the UniMog of boats but don’t forget that UniMogs are great in extremis and awful to drive the other 99% of the time. !!!!

Yes, You're right. That's why I am looking for kind of Land Cruiser or G-Lander - 44 rather than 50. That is - I understand - the intention of this thread. Few Bruce Roberts and other steel yachts I sailed are UniMog-s. Safe but "awful to drive" unless really bad conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ol1970

. . . I do find it fascinating that the knowledgeable people on this do not think a new Amel, HR, Discovery, or Oyster is a viable blue water cruiser when there are hundreds of them out there successfully doing it. Kraken is definitely an interesting choice, but other than that it would seem that I’m putting my family’s life in jeopardy doing any sort of crossing.j. .

I hope you didn't misunderstand anyone. Amels, at least the previous generation, are purpose-built world cruising, ocean crossing, circumnavigating boats which will happily take you anywhere. HR, Discovery, and Oyster are superb cruisers capable in any weather -- just that being more and more oriented to coastal cruising, don't have as much deck storage and technical space as is desirable for sailing in really remote areas. For an ARC kind of Atlantic crossing they are absolutely fine.



People happily do this kind of crossing even in Beneteaus and Bavarias. You are NOT taking your family's life in jeapordy.


In my humble opinion, which I know some people will disagree with, the Kraken is an attempt to cater to some irrational prejudices held by a small number of people against external ballast and spade rudders. I would never personally touch such a useless, compromised thing. And I sail in some of the toughest and most remote places in the world; up to 200 miles above the Arctic Circle. If I were building a boat from scratch I wouldn't consider anything BUT external ballast and spade rudder. I would make the boat metal, however, and not plastic, if I had a choice.


But for what the OP wants to do -- any normal cruising boat will be fine.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I hope you didn't misunderstand anyone. If I were building a boat from scratch I wouldn't consider anything BUT external ballast and spade rudder. I would make the boat metal, however, and not plastic, if I had a choice.

But for what the OP wants to do -- any normal cruising boat will be fine.

Agree with everything you wrote here but not sure about the spade rudder categorically preference here… Spade?

Over the last years I’ve spent two years in two different large boatyards dealing mostly with ocean cruisers. Had the opportunity to see the bottoms of tens of boats getting for storage, refitting (like me) and emergencies. The most common hull emergency cases were broken to complete loss of spade rudders.