Another 'what boat should i buy' thread

[kjbiceman]

Hi TaikoHax, sounds like you are on the right track getting as much open water experience as possible. The more you know about systems and being able to trouble shot problems on the fly is invaluable.When I my research I had heard a lot of great things about Whitbys being a very well built and easy to sail boat. I did buy a Whitby 42 over 4 years ago and lived on her and made many Gulf crossings and up and down central american coast. She has been a pleasure to sail and handles rough storms very well. If you are looking for a ready to go very well kept Whitby I have seen one in Punta Gorda, FL. that for 125k is a ready to go deal. But if you don't mind a little updating and clean up I have had to put my Whitby up for sale to pay for my daughters wedding. I am very sad to do so but sometimes money controls ours lives more then we like to. I am only asking 70K and best offers. If you like I can send you pics and info on my boat. Would be happy to talk to you about both boats just call405-850-9242 and we can talk.
Ken B.

[Dave22q]

When considering mono hulls consider beam and layout not just length. For example my 33 probably has more usable space and storage than some 40's. Designers make many comfort vs. speed trade-offs.

[El Pinguino]

A quick search on yachtworld.co turned up a few that may suit.... this South African built job 1996 Lavranos 50 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk
and also a few Amels and a trio of Westerly OceanMasters at around UKP 100,000 westerly oceanmaster Boats For Sale

The latter are good boats, a bit big for my taste but may do the job for you.

[Van Der Beek]

£180 000 will buy you a good sailing boat, it will not buy you a good catamaran.


@El Pinguino

I also suggested Westerly but OP has made it clear that he wants a newer boat.

[TheThunderbird]

Use 2/3 of your amount for purchase
The rest goes into upgrades, refitting, provisions against bad news
A center-board sloop, like HRassy, Moody,.. makes sense also in the 38-42' range

I would consider a BALTIC from the '80s

Wauquiez is a good brand from France.

Also do consider many one-off designs from the '70-80s, much devalued in the market for being of no-brand, yet possibly built by excellent craftsmen in selected yards of little commercial resonance.

Many of them in Italy, UK, Spain. ZUANELLI (S&S) is a sharp example.

There are also many motor-sailors which can suit your needs, better than an ocean racer with running back-stays etc.

Just walk into ANY marina and look for any forlorn lady with old dignity :-)


You don't need a 3cabin/3head boat, thus skip over charter boats.

Commercial boats CAN cross the oceans, yet their rigging quality is medium, at best, and not intended for the stress of continuous usage the way you plan to, long term.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by kjbiceman

Hi TaikoHax, sounds like you are on the right track getting as much open water experience as possible. The more you know about systems and being able to trouble shot problems on the fly is invaluable.When I my research I had heard a lot of great things about Whitbys being a very well built and easy to sail boat. I did buy a Whitby 42 over 4 years ago and lived on her and made many Gulf crossings and up and down central american coast. She has been a pleasure to sail and handles rough storms very well. If you are looking for a ready to go very well kept Whitby I have seen one in Punta Gorda, FL. that for 125k is a ready to go deal. But if you don't mind a little updating and clean up I have had to put my Whitby up for sale to pay for my daughters wedding. I am very sad to do so but sometimes money controls ours lives more then we like to. I am only asking 70K and best offers. If you like I can send you pics and info on my boat. Would be happy to talk to you about both boats just call405-850-9242 and we can talk.
Ken B.

No way my beloved daughter could ask me for such a sacrifice, unless the groom gives me the Keys of a fully restored Swan65 :-)

[Russ]

I sail a 42 with my wife and Lab dog. Plenty big but it is a steel heavy displacement cutter. Think you'll be unhappy with flimsy plastic. Now a FG Bristol Channel cutter at 28 ft is an entirely different thing.
Ya need heavy boat to be safe and no skeg rudder but something more solid.
Re length anything at least 38' will do. Look at Lord Nelsons, Hans Christians and heavy built FG. Russ

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

But to bring it back to topic - i guess the underlying the question is really the re-occurring :

'are production boats, such as the ones i've listed, inappropriate for those crossings (any specific experiences either way?) especially in heavier weather and are there any other specific boats between that size range and the price range of 0-180k that are worth looking at which are technically more seaworthy*?'

* taking into account that Skipper/Crew are the primary factor

I sailed many modern production cruisers at some point and my comments would be that:

• They systematically outsail all the cruising tubs you can find around. There usually is not much wrong with their design.
• If you sail them at the same speed and wind angle as what a tub can do, the "comfort and motion" argument doesn't exist, but they can be faster and still comfortable too in many conditions.
• They are far more seaworthy in bad weather in terms of handling, provided you keep sailing them. You would need to have some kind of death wish to leave a modern fin keeler to itself in a breaking sea.
• The construction is where the savings are made and it tends to be appalling. You can expect major structural trouble and leaks everywhere if you hit heavy weather offshore. They won't normally kill you, but the damage can be almost impossible to fix.
• The factory rigging is just about systematically too light to sail offshore, it doesn't last.
• The interior arrangements are largely inadequate at sea and it gets worse as the weather increases. New boat buyers proceed "from the inside out" and they buy what most closely resembles to their kitchen and lounge. It drives design.

In 1992, I completely wrecked a Beneteau First 35S5 overnight just by sailing it slowly upwind in the English Channel in 45 knots under main alone. It handled perfectly and never got "hit" or slammed, but the hull was flexing so much that all the accommodation collapsed in a heap in the middle, taking the water tanks with it. In the morning, we found that the mast had a kink some distance above the gooseneck: chainplates moving and compression failure. It was slowly drinking water from somewhere hidden around the keel (counter-mould everywhere) and we bailed it out from time to time before it got too high for our boots. We still sailed it across, then around the tip of Brittany and back where it belonged and they wrote it off.

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

I would dearly love a cat but my better half (who's putting slightly over 50% of the money into this) really dislikes the look of them (despite me going on about the practical benefits) - if she could she'd be happy in a classic boat I expect.

I however would prefer something a bit newer, i'd been looking at Bene 45's specifically, so the debate rages on (especially as she'd prefer to buy a boat outright or at least 75% outright which necessitates an older boat and i'm keen to buy a nearly new boat via mortgage).

Cats are attractive "from the inside out" for sure. On top of ugly, you also get huge windage, no upwind ability, two engines instead of one and... modern monohulls can sail pretty flat a lot of the time. This being said, I am just taking the opposite standpoint for balance, I am not interested in a mono vs multi debate.

Many posters suggested a smaller boat than what you are outlining. I find that there is one hell of a lot of space on my 43', including just for a couple. No one is in a better position to understand your needs than yourself, but needs and desires can be different things. Boat size brings additional hassles and this means reduced usability and enjoyment at some point.

I would back your partner at 100% on the financing and choice question: get a simple, well-built second-hand boat (not one filled with bloody systems) and don't complicate it. Most of the "offshore" boats I see were more seaworthy and more suitable for sailing before the (inexperienced) owner "prepared" them in a great splash of cash.

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

In terms of ages and refitting (and I appreciate this is a 'how long is a piece of string/depends how it's been sailed or maintained question') is there a certain age at which i should expect more significant refits?
...
Badly worded. I guess I mean should I expect certain big ticket items (such as rigging) to need work after 5 years? 10?

Also is there a 'magic number' in engine hours that I should expect more serious work to be needed? (e.g. if I was buying a used car i'd be more cautious of an engine with 100k miles+ and expect a bit of TLC to be needed).

Boats are cheap at the moment and you can buy a used boat from a high-end yard (Nautor, Wauquiez, Grand Soleil, Amel etc) for amazingly little money. The age of a good fibreglass or alloy hull is essentially irrelevant. Consider buying an excellent one that reached the point where it has almost fully devalued (this is what I had done with my first boat).

Sail the boat as it is when you get it. No point spending money on stuff that is in fact adequate. Check your rigging regularly, i.e. go up there yourself. Before heading offshore with a second-hand boat, you are typically looking at renewing all the standing rigging.
Replace the sails if you need to. The mainsail in particular must be bulletproof with good reefs. An excellent self-steering vane would be my #1 investment. Don't gadgetise the boat. One perfectly reliable system always beats a crappy one with a "backup".

If the engine is a proper marine engine (much reduced chances of fundamental installation problems), it is tidy and starts perfectly from stone cold, you are probably on the right side. Once you have it going, stop one cylinder at a time by cracking open the high pressure fuel line with a spanner, it will give you an idea of whether all cylinders are loaded evenly. Check for any bubbles coming up in the coolant (head gasket failure or worse, maybe overheated). Checking the oil can give you an idea of how well looked after the engine was. Engine hours are not automatically that meaningful, because you don't know how the engine was run...

[ColR]

Rohan's got a point here.

If you're inside a palace looking out you can't see how ugly the exterior really is.

If your idea is to establish a floating home base plus occasional sailing, then there's nothing better than a cat. My brother and wife lived on one for years at a marina - virtually the same as being on terra firma. And the speed between a cat and mono is beyond comparison.

My 2cents

[Cormorant]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Hansen

...
I have a lot of thoughts that I think would be helpful, starting out with some specifics on our boat which I believe after 8 years of interaction with other cruisers, is pretty close to being the ultimate cruising and live aboard boat.

Please at least tell the whole forum what boat you have!

[SV Sailfish]

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

I would dearly love a cat but my better half (who's putting slightly over 50% of the money into this) really dislikes the look of them (despite me going on about the practical benefits) - if she could she'd be happy in a classic boat I expect.

OP, I caught the above in your response post...

"Over 50%" in the corporate world I come from means controlling ownership so... You better be really nice to that girl

Because without her money... you are out there all alone on a much smaller boat. Personally, I would buy exactly what she wants. (and there is nothing wrong with a well found classic)

Cheers!

[dofthesea]

I think its important to hone up on your boat design knowledge. There is a reason why certain boats are preferred for certain kinds of sailing. If you systematically go through and read some of the classic books on designs and the folks who cross oceans and don't just do coastal cruising you'll find a clearer picture about what makes a great boat for crossing oceans. I personally would want a full keel that has been fully refitted and I mean fully refitted. I would want to be able to sail for 5 years without having to consider serious issues over seas such as rigging, power, electronics and a few others. Things can cost as much as 2-3 times what they might cost locally.

I'd be looking at Cape Dorys, IP, Pacific Seacrafts, Halleberg Rassys and other boats of similar design.

[mr-canada]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Use 2/3 of your amount for purchase
The rest goes into upgrades, refitting, provisions against bad news

Seconded TheThunderbird.

There is a book you may want to read, called "After 50,000 miles". It is an older book but it goes through the tips and tricks of what to do living aboard and sailing the seven seas. It's an entertaining read and has some incredible tips (like who knew coating eggs with vaseline makes them last for months without refrigeration?).

Given my read of that book, here's what I would recommend, without any brand names associated.

- Full length keel. Sucker will track amazing which is key in long voyages
- Mechanical autopilot. Stay away from digital or electronic ones. Halfway between the UK and New York, the last thing you want is to have to have someone on the helm full time. If it breaks, at least it can be fixed without ordering parts from Asia and requiring a qualified technician
- Very thick fibreglass. This is why a lot of old salts don't like newer boats for blue water. The manufacturers have figured out how thin they can make it. In the 70s and 80s they weren't sure about the material and made it as thick as possible. Who knows what you might hit in the middle of nowhere.
- Diesel heater. Very efficient and you don't need to buy different types of fuels, diesel can be had almost anywhere big boats can dock.
- Single handed rigging setup. Pitching and yawing around in weather last place you want to be is the foredeck, especially if your lady is trying to cook a meal at sea or one of you are going to have a rest
- Continuous furler. These are hard to find these days, I have one and it's a dream. While sub-optimal, it allows you to reef the jib easily rather than swapping sails in a hectic blow, I've seen multiple problems with the "pull the jib sheets to unfurl and pull the furling line to furl type. Some people love them, this is just my experience
- Something with a big cockpit. Last thing you need is five foot-itis when trying to do things other than sail. And by big, I mean really big, not just a few benches and a fold out table. At sea this is where you'll do your laundry, on occasion take a bath, clean fish you catch, and untie those nasty knots that tend to happen when it's least convenient
- Try to avoid propane appliances. You can't buy propane everywhere. Anything you can switch from propane to diesel, do it, spend the money. It's also quite explosive and you just never know when your a thousand miles from nowhere
- Get the best most powerful VHF radio you can find. Never know when you're going to need to call for help, and in the middle of nowhere on the ocean, other vessels, let alone transponders, are going to be really far away. A sat phone for backup, not as your main hailing device; if you need to call the Coast Guard in Venezuela, are you going to know the phone number and country code?
- Of course LED everything lighted. You dont generate any power while the motor is off, and burning diesel to charge your batteries is something to be avoided when you have little control over how quickly you'll get to somewhere to buy fuel and connect to shore power

I'd say read the book I cited; I have never done blue water sailing, but those people were winning awards for circling the earth and the tips and tricks they have are amazing. It will give you a better idea of what to look for in a boat for your long term needs. Forget brand names for now.

Hope this helps.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by TaikoHax

I would dearly love a cat but my better half (who's putting slightly over 50% of the money into this) really dislikes the look of them (despite me going on about the practical benefits) - if she could she'd be happy in a classic boat I expect.
Charter a performance catamaran for a week, ditto a condomaran, & then see what she thinks. My $0.02 is to choose a boat with daggerboards, & known for performance for the former trial.
And yes, it's not overly hard to find a good catamaran on your budget. No more so than a mono. I've seen plenty which would work.

I however would prefer something a bit newer, i'd been looking at Bene 45's specifically, so the debate rages on (especially as she'd prefer to buy a boat outright or at least 75% outright which necessitates an older boat and i'm keen to buy a nearly new boat via mortgage).
Beneteaus rank pretty dang low on the quality scale. Something which you'll rarely find argued on here. It's simply a fact. And I'm referring to both the quality of the build, as well as the quality of the materials used. Bene's do get used for offshore work, but when compared to many other makes, they truly come up wanting. As they put pretty, & inexpensive, above function, reliability, & performance, when designing/building them.

In terms of ages and refitting (and I appreciate this is a 'how long is a piece of string/depends how it's been sailed or maintained question') is there a certain age at which i should expect more significant refits?
There are no fixed numbers on this. It depends on; the quality of the materials used, the quality of the design, the quality of installation & assembly, quality & quantity of TLC spent on the boat by her owners.

One other reality is that even brand new boats have problems. Sometimes severe ones. Plus, prior to going offshore/doing any serious sailing on them, you need to go over every system onboard anyway. Quite a few of which will need either a bit of TLC, or beefing up.

Edit: Just read the 'reality check' article - really good points

Badly worded. I guess I mean should I expect certain big ticket items (such as rigging) to need work after 5 years? 10?

Also is there a 'magic number' in engine hours that I should expect more serious work to be needed? (e.g. if I was buying a used car i'd be more cautious of an engine with 100k miles+ and expect a bit of TLC to be needed)
See below.

I appreciate there aren't any 'set' figures but it'll help steer my searching.

Sincere thanks for the inputs and advice thus far!

Boat/Equipment age is a factor in what will need replacing, upgrading, or adding. But you need to be realistic in that most boats that are used will need a sail or three (at least), as well as some rigging work, & TLC for some of her other systems. Big & Small.

You'll need to hire a professional to inspect all of her big systems. Which for me, on any boat of size, is just part of the process of getting her surveyed.
Meaning, get a;
- Standard, General Survey
- Rigging Survey
- Engine & Mechanicals survey, with an Analysis done on the Engine & Transmission fluids. Generator too if she has one.
- A Sails survey, perhaps.
- Ditto on any other big ticket items which you may not be qualified to inspect. Which for me personally, includes a large/complex electrical system, for example.
And of course along with all of this is a haul out, as well as a test sail or two. Including a good running of the engines through a checklist, & ditto for everything else of consequence onboard.

Lots of stuff? Yep. But it ain't like buying a car or house. Since the systems onboard are a lot more numerous, & operate in a pretty harsh environment. With unknown levels of wear & tear, & the same with regards to their maintenance.

So it is a lot of $ too, in order to see that a boat's "properly qualified", but you get a lot of peace of mind. It saves a lot of time & money in her tuning up, refitting, & outfitting. And you know that she handles appropriately, prior to signing that big check to swap for her title.

Some boats can be weeded out via leg work by phone, & internet. Some by expert, in depth analysis of pics of her. Others via guided, live, video walk throughs & perfunctory inspections. Or, if you like, you can hire a captain/project manager to do much of this. Even to include setting up surveys, & vetting local resources for your outfitting locally, etc. But given the stakes, you'll want to be there for a large percentage of the above.
And I've never skipped out on being present for any of it when buying a boat myself. Or when acting on the owner's behalf. There are just questions that will come up when various steps are transpiring, that I'll want answered. And unless you're there...

[TaikoHax]

Just come back from work - apologies for the lack of reply.

Sincere thanks for all the advice above - notes are being taken and books ordered where appropriate.

The general gist i'm getting appears to be :

• _Probably_ avoid modern 'Production' boats _if_ I can find an older option that suits but if I do get a modern boat, limit my expectations.
• Don't discount Cats (if i can get my better half interested enough)
• Maybe see if a 40-43 footer can fit our needs and save a bit of cash
• Be nice to my better half since she's putting more cash in
• Read Up - Boat Design and Cruising Requirements
• Review them 'outside in' rather than 'it's got nice furniture'
• Get a decent survey done

I did see a Moody 47 a while back that looked just the ticket but i'll be buggered if I can see any of them for sale anymore. That and an Amel...Super maramu? that looked awesome but fundamentally too big I think.

One of the additional challenges (at least with the first finance place I called) was that if I wanted to get a boat mortgage it had to be a boat younger than 10 years old (or younger than 25 at the end of the mortgage) but hopefully that's just a restriction from that one particular place.

(that was in case we wanted to garnish some of our savings and put them aside for any refitting and mortgage/loan the rest....or if I persuaded her to go for something shiner).

Thanks for the inputs so far!