Any advantages of Wing Keels ?

[David Mathis]

As the owner of a tow service, we won't tow a wing keel out of the mud without diver checking the situation and providing advice. The risk of causing damage is too great.



Also, it's significantly more difficult to free one. The usual method of freeing a sailboat by heeling doesn't work, it's like trying to tow a Danforth anchor. Having the diver secure the tow line to the keel just above the wing then pulling straight back is one of the few successful options but the risk of causing damage is still noteworthy.


Because a very specialized successful racing boat had one many years ago, they became popular but it seems as though they offer little advantage for the cruising family while becoming a significant disadvantage when the bottom is found to be where it isn't expected. If your wing becomes buried, expect to pay a premium to get it free.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by PHK1

hi - i am looking at a Sabre 362 - most seem to have wing keels. Seems only advantage of them is shallow draft. Are there any advantages relating to sailing performance on or off the wind including downwind. I know a few degrees is lost pointing and have read some of the previous discussions on the Forum. Tx.

Others have talked about the failure to be able to heel the boat to free the keel after grounding. This is very true. Others have talked about catching pots and debris on the wings this is true also. I haven’t see anyone say that if you look at the new boats they are not around anymore.

When Connors lost the America’s Cup to a wing keel the rage became Wing Keels. Having watched the event Dennis did not cover Australia in the last race. It leaves me to believe they got inside his head and there really was no real advantage. The disadvantages others have spoken about would easily out weigh any possible speed advantage which i highly doubt IMO.

[Normanskier]

My recollection of the use of a winged keel on the Australian winner was that the 12 meter yachts racing was a formula. By trading draft for other items in the formula like mast height an advantage was gained. Hence the Aussies used the wing design to reduce draft and gained on other aspects of the design. It was presumed that when heeling the wing would induce greater draft allowing for better pointing than a skeel type of keel.
Those issues do not apply to normal cruising boats albeit for "skinny" water.
Just a thought.

NK

[sailingabe41ds]

Shallow draft...and if you have a sailortrailer easier to drop in the water because of the draft. I had a Capri 16 and mid size family sedan to haul it.


Abe

[Talbot]

I don't know the Sabre, But I do have several years experience of a Sigma 62 with a winged keel.

My observations:

It was faster upwind than a similar boat with a full fin keel.

It had 2 feet less draught - great as it meant we could get over a bar, that the 7ft full fin could not.

It could stand on its fin and wings, but if it did fall over (never did) it would have been at much more of an angle than a standard fin

A winged keel is more likely to be stopped when approaching minimum depth, where a fin has a chance of cutting through, but the 2 ft less draught makes a big difference.

If I was buying a mono, I would view a good winged keel as a plus.

[scottmc59]

We had a Hunter 31 with wing keel. It gives good performance from shallower draft but run aground and you'll be stuck, especially very soft mud. It acts like an anchor and digs in. And the technique of attaching a halyard to another boat or dinghy and leaning it way over to get off ground does not work on wing keels. That's the pros and cons from my experience.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ob44

That's interesting. The original winged keel on Australia II was designed to improve windward performance by generating lift. As that technology "trickled down," however, we see boats with stubby keels with hunks of not-so-hydrodynamically shaped lead fastened on. Not surprising that they are less efficient than fin keels.

The winged keel was put on Australia II to circumvent the limitation on draft. A deeper fin would have been (and is) more effective then a winged keel, but those were not permitted, however the wings do provide some lateral resistance though not as much as a plain fin of the same total area and weight.

So and winged keel on a Sabre 362 serves the same purpose as it did on Australia II: reduced draft.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NY2TLV

...

Stiff ride
Because of the construction design as well as some of the benefits listed above, the ride with a wing keel is a bit stiffer than with the fin keel. Many sailors prefer this, especially the cruiser types, who will appreciate the reassuring ride. If comfort is your goal, or if it is a liveaboard you are looking to purchase, this might be a relevant factor for you...

Could you elaborate on this a bit? I don't understand the concept of "stiff ride" on a boat at all.

[doctorbill]

How do the above pros and cons discussed apply to shoal draft (non-winged) keels vs deep fin keels?

[glanrock]

Depending on where you sail, a shallow draft can be a huge benefit. If you routinely sail in deep water, not so much. So that leaves pure sailing and for that I'm betting the longer keel would be better for it but probably takes a bunch of math to prove it.

[scottmc59]

good answer. SeaTow pulled us off the bottom but it was scarry and we hauled out very soon after to check for damage. None found but glad I have a modified fin keel now.

[bobatkins]

I wouldn't have a stubby winged keel boat no matter how good everything else on it is. There are way too many boats with winged keels on the market here on the West coast which really shows how buyers got conned into buying them in an area that doesn't have any shallow water - their primary selling point is less draft. If a savings of 12" draft makes a difference to a 40ft boat sailing or being grounded then you are sailing in way too shallow water to begin with! Hauling around another 1000-1200 lbs of dead weight just to 'save' 12" of draft makes no sense at all.

Winged keels have far more disadvantages and I really can't think of a single advantage.

1. They typically weigh 20-25% more than a fin keel! On a 40ft this is usually another 1000-1200 lbs extra weight
2. They only typically provide a savings of about 12" draft on a typical 40ft boat
3. They stick much better to the bottom when you run aground and make kedging off almost impossible
4. They have far more leeway/slippage when sailing close to the wind
5. They also typically have much shorter and 'fatter' rudders further reducing handling nimbleness
6. They don't sit well at anchor - they roll a LOT more than the same boat with a fin keel in the same anchorage.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm not competent to comment on this, but wonder why, if it is true, we don't see winglets on serious raceboat designs these days? They seem all to be very high aspect fins with bulb ballast on the tips.

Jim

Jim, I think this is a very interesting question. Winglets seem to be well established in aviation for their ability to reduce drag/improve lift. So why not have a deep draft keel and winglets? Also, I think the only planes I've seen with winglets have fairly high aspect ratio wings, but I'm no expert.

Perhaps it has something to do with the difference in density between air and water?

[Jim Cate]

Perhaps it has something to do with the difference in density between air and water?

I reckon that there are plenty of differences between compressible air at 500 knots and incompressible water at 5 knots! Plus, of course, the fact that airplane wings only have to lift in one direction, whilst boat keels have to work on both tacks.

Not simple problems, and naval architects and hydrodynamicists spend a lot of time considering them. And as others have pointed out, the Aussie 12 meter wasn't designed to be the fastest boat possible, but rather the fastest boat that fit into a very restrictive rating rule... very different problems!

Jim

[rslifkin]

The lack of winglets might also be a durability problem. It wouldn't surprise me if making them an effective shape leads to them being too easy to damage. Or maybe they add enough drag when that the slight boost in upwind performance isn't worth it for the loss elsewhere.