Are Boats Really This Fragile? Avoiding Costly Mistakes in the Future -New Boat Owner

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

Do you know of any sailboats where the inboard was mounted above the water line?

This has nothing to do with the underlying problem. This engine already had water in the oil.

[Excalibur5]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

Do you know of any sailboats where the inboard was mounted above the water line?

My current boat. Prout Snowgoose 37 (Small cat with center mount engine). One benefit is it is extremely difficult to backwater the engine due to there being a constant slope downhill from the exhaust outlet on the engine to the overboard discharge.



I'm sure there are others, but it certainly is not common to have this arrangement.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

overcranking? That sounds like the bad gas excuse clueless mechanics give when they feel like they have to say something. Can we get a definition of overcranking as it pertains to breaking an engine vs draining a battery.

From what I was told, if you turn the key and “nothing happens”, and keep holding it, all it is doing is letting in seawater but not ejecting it (because the pump isn’t on). So you basically flooded your engine. Lesson is, if you turn key and nothing happens, STOP and see what’s going on. But keeping the key turned just floods then engine and kills it. It can be rebuilt (my boat neighbor got a free pacific seacraft and all he had to do was spend $600 replacing the pinstons and injectors, etc.

[markxengineerin]

From what I was told, if you turn the key and “nothing happens”, and keep holding it, all it is doing is letting in seawater but not ejecting it (because the pump isn’t on). So you basically flooded your engine.

This is complete nonsense. To O.P.: as others suggest, I would get a 2nd opinion from someone who can view your situation in person.

An engine is a positive displacement machine. The airflow produced by cranking is easily enough to displace water out of any reasonably designed exhaust system. Water could backflow if there is no vented loop, after you stop cranking, but having a vented loop is part of any reasonable exhaust system.

The only pumps I know of or have heard of that have anything to do with seawater are mechanically connected to the crankshaft and will be spinning every time the engine is. I would be surprised to hear of an electrically driven water pump and definitely worth making sure that's the case if this is the leading theory.

[JPA Cate]

Many are below the waterline, and some the exhaust hose comes out so close to the water that it can back fill at the dock from wave action. If overladen, there goes the water into the exhaust.

Sad, but true.

____________

Welcome aboard CF, person. Yes, steep learning curve. You're going to be buying tools. You'll find some threads about what you'll need,* but, if your engine had low hours on it, it may well be worth re-building. There is an old thread by SailorChic34, about her first time re-build of a Yanmar diesel engine.*

*Use the CF Custom Google search under the Search menu to find them.

The tools will to some extent be determined by what you decide to do. Will you need metric, SAE, or a combination? How much money do you have to spend? There is a tendency here to point people towards expensive things. Some of it can't be helped.
Tools that you will be using for some years, should be of reasonable quality. Cheap tools that are supposed to fit, often fit sloppily. You can pay too little.

-----

Your hydrolock was a side effect of the leak you had beforehand, when the oil appeared milky gray. That is what water in the engine oil looks like. If it leaks into the sump, it may even force oil out the dipstick hole. If the engine block is clean, the oil will leave tracks where gravity sucked it to.

It isn't that engines are fragile, but they do need care, and some are more rugged than others. The moment it takes to check the oil, can save you lots of money. Not to rag on you, but it is important to realize that engines need care; steering needs to be checked--cables may need to be replaced; you need to check your rig and its tuning every time you sail. Look for cracks in the tops of swages; look for stranded wire; use your binoculars to check the fittings aloft. Forestays with furlers, often break about 8" below the swage at the top. Our mast had a t-ball fitting for the D-1 that broke across the bend where it slotted into the mast. Spotted it, because my husband likes to be sent aloft to check the rig before we sail. It was visible from the deck, with the binoculars, too.

Most of the work that needs doing on a boat can be done on a learn as you go, basis, but I would have thought in your sailing classes you were taught to, when you are going to leave the dock, that day, you check the oil. You might have to abort the sail, when you see something wrong with it, or if the oil level has "increased" because it is floating on the water that got in--the flip side of which is if the oil level is way down, you can cook the engine because it got an oil leak. Always carry a spare water pump impellor, spare fan belt, spare fuel and oil filter, and enough oil for at least one complete oil change. When impellors get old, they throw blades, and then the blade goes and blocks a passage that needs to have water flowing through it, and the engine overheats. Replacing them on a regular basis keeps the blades from getting old and brittle, and you from the forceps search for the bit. Useful items to add if the boat doesn't have them already: engine hour meter; loss-of-oil pressure alarm; oil temperature gauge; water in the bilge alarm.

As they warned you above, there IS a lot, but it is all logical, and you are about to develop some mechanical skills you didn't have before--and that is all good, and will make you feel proud of yourself for doing it, afterwards.

Usually the members here are quite helpful, and there are many knowledgeable ones.

Ann

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by jeanathon

Do you know of any sailboats where the inboard was mounted above the water line?

Most cats.

[s/v Jedi]

OP is one of you, creating an account just for this one post and laughing about the thread it creates, probably even participating with posts from the real login.



No, it isn’t me

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by SailingHoot

Question about this: Could shutting off the main battery cook my Lowrance chartplotter?

hypothetically of course...

Actually, it can. Some alternators have a voltage sense connection attached to the battery. If you disconnect the battery charging connection but leave the sense wire on the battery itself, the alternator will keep pushing the voltage up to some crazy levels. Once I had the sense wire hooked to the starting battery while the alternator was charging the house battery. I saw 38V at 80A (3 kW) before realizing the problem and frying my 24V house battery. Any connected electronics would have blown up at that point.

Yes, boats have a steep learning curve. Sorry to hear about your engine but it looks as if the engine has issues already (grey oil). Hopefully, you can get a new engine and take good care of it.

[marcjsmith]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

OP is one of you, creating an account just for this one post and laughing about the thread it creates, probably even participating with posts from the real login.



No, it isn’t me

You mean a venerable sock puppet problem from SA has found its way here? fml

FWIW the easiest way to avoid costly mistakes is to not buy a boat....

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by person

Purchased a CS 33 (Canadian Sailcraft) which was in good condition 6 months ago, but after taking it out only 4, maybe 5 or so times, when I last tried to start it, the engine wouldn't start, and further investigation revealed milky white oil and the engine had experienced hydrolock, and I am now looking at purchasing a new engine.

Some context: Engine had low engine hours, and the boat had been barely used by its previous owners. During the last oil change I did (1.5 - 2 months before hydrolock), the oil was grey. I thought this was an issue that needed to be investigated, but the engine was running fine and the engine survey had come back fine as well, so I decided it could wait to be addressed later as long as I don't take it out for a long sail in the interim.

The way the mechanic explained it is this:
- Hydrolock was due to either overcranking (most likely), or
- Water getting into the exhaust system during heavy seas.

I'm not a mechanical person at all, nor have I spent a ton of time around sailboats (I am however ASA 101/103/104 certified).

So besides overcranking, (which I understand to be turning the key to the right and holding it there for more than 20 seconds) are there any other things a new boat owner or layperson should be aware of that can completely ruin an engine or boat so that such mistakes can be avoided in the future?

Boats being "fragile" here is really a misnomer. given that CS has been out of business for 30 years and the boat is still around. Your situation may be remedied with a series (if you are lucky) just with a series of oil changes.

operating a boat is not like a car. you simply can't just crank and crank and crank until it starts. As other have said a marine diesel while cranking over is still pumping water into the exhaust ( which is normal) but you don't yet have exhaust gas pressure to push the water out with. If the engine doesn't want to start immediately the typical procedure is to shut off the water intake while cranking and then immediately open it again when the engine fires. You just didn't know those basics.

make sure the anti-siphon in the exhaust water hose is working, they often get stuck over the years. I replaced mine with one that does not have a valve but has a hose and thruhull fitting so that I can see the water flow when the engine is running.

When the engine starts make sure you check the exhaust outlet to verify that there is a good flow of water, not just a dribble.

Other items. Winterize your engine in the fall. If you are located somewhere where the water freezes in the winter, get the -100c green antifreeze. ITs more expensive but stays liquid far longer than the cheap pink stuff. Also drain as much of the water out of your exhaust system as you can before you start winterizing, this prevents as much dilution of the AF as possible.

When winterizing I use compressed air to blow out the potable water lines. I hate the after taste of the pink stuff in the spring while trying to flush the system!

When Furling NEVER NEVER NEVER put the furling line on a winch. If its hard to turn, figure out what the issue is. Its really easy to destroy your forestay by just putting the furling line on a winch.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by SailingHoot

Question about this: Could shutting off the main battery cook my Lowrance chartplotter?

hypothetically of course...

Depends on how it was wired in. Generally the answer should be, NO.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Excalibur5

Unfortunately, it happens frequently on sailboats where the engine is mounted low in the boat, most of the time below water line. As you state, when cranking the engine too long without starting the muffler fills up, and the non-firing engine does not have enough pressure to force the water out of the muffler and out the exhaust. As soon as the engine cranking is stopped, then the salt water can backflow into the exhaust, through the open or partially open valves, filling one or more cylinders with water.


The damage from there can vary dramatically, somewhat dependent on your luck. Diesel engine starters do indeed have a lot of torque (necessary with the 15:1 or more compression ratio of diesel engines), and can damage pistons, connecting rods, piston rings, or valves by trying to compress an incompressible fluid (water). It can also blow out a head gasket from the forces involved, although I personally haven't seen this happen. If the water is left in the cylinders any time at all, rust can set in, and it can ruin the delicate tips of the fuel injectors, and rust the piston rings to the side of the cylinders, and rust the valves, just to name a few.

I guess I still don’t get it. How is it that the 15:1 requires a starter powerful enough to damage internals, but those same internals don’t get damaged when the pressure from that compression (150 psi?) get sent through the roof by combustion (3000+ psi)? How is it that 150 psi isn’t enough to push water uphill the 36” or so required by the exhaust system?

I 100% agree with the the corrosion issue.

[rslifkin]

Overcranking flooding issues vary. Some engine and exhaust system combos are susceptible, others are not. I'm not entirely sure if my engines will flood from overcranking, but I know my generator won't. It pushes enough air volume through the exhaust to force water up through the lift muffler and out the discharge while cranking, so the muffler won't overfill.

As far as bending things with a cylinder full of water, it's more that the parts are moving and then come to a very sudden stop with some force still pushing. It's different loading than they see when the engine is running. In some cases, it'll be valvetrain parts that give, as it's trying to open a valve against a wall of water (while the valves don't normally open against significant pressure).

[hpeer]

A couple of years ago I did a dumb thing and hydrolocked my engine. Yanmar 4JH4-TE, about 2,599 hours.

I was lucky and was able to recover from the event with some minor work. I had to take valve cover off and remove the injectors but I did and got it all back together and she now runs just fine once again.

So just because you hydrolocked does not mean the engine is toast.

But, time is of the essence, especially in salt water. Get the water out of the engine. Completely drain the sump. Put in new oil and change filters. Hand crank it with injectors out. Change oil. Try to get it to crank. If it does change oil. The. Start again and run for a short bit, then change oul. Then run it for a fair bit.

Do not panic, think.

[CrispyCringle]

This over cranking issue is new to me. Im not sure I get it. So if you crank and crank and fill your wet exhaust but the engine doesn't start, how do you ever get the water out in order to crank again? Something seems amiss. If it is properly vented, this should never happen, correct?



But to the OP, Something was wrong with the engine before you changed the oil. Oil should never be milky color. Only amber or dark amber and clear. I would get a good engine tech to look at it. Like others have said, It may not be ruined, but it definitely has an issue.