At what point does a boat start to get too big? (family, kids, maintenance concerns)

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by WrongColorPaint

We are not looking to incite internet drama. Simply asking for feedback from those who are sailing with young kids and dogs, where is the threshold or at what point does the amount of effort and time it takes to operate and maintain a boat start to become unreasonable as the length of the boat gets larger?

There seems to be a sweet-spot between the 47ft and 54ft range of boats. Lots of people sailing with kids and families on 47's through 54's. The HR49 & 54, Oyster stops at 52, Hylas 47/49/54, Amel, I am sure there are a few other non-production names we missed.

I'm not asking about cost of maintenance vs. cost of ownership/purchase, I mean actual hours and effort. At what point does a boat start to become bigger, more complicated, sophisticated and most importantly, time consuming to the point that two people (with family/kids/dogs) start to feel like the boat is a full-time job?

Asking because just like everyone else: We want the safest and most comfortable boat we can afford.

I am thinking that a 49-54 is a size where if you have the money to stay on top of everything religiously, then you shouldn't have too many surprises. Anything larger than a 55-ish boat starts to get BIG, complicated and time consuming for a couple (husband/wife) to manage. Anything smaller than a 44/45-47-ish ft boat starts to get really crowded and small. (with kids/dogs) I am not talking about boat handling, sailing or passage. I mean the time it takes to fix or maintain the physical stuff on a boat.

I understand not all boats are equal. Is what I said above a good platform or opinion to start from given the names we referenced? We each have our minds made up. I like a 54 and she likes a 55 so we have a size that we roughly agree on. Problem is the boat I like has less creature comforts (space, stuff) but is much more serviceable. The boat she likes is much more new, modern, spacious --and I'll have to tear the kitchen/boat half-apart to do an oil change or perform service.

I think that what we want cannot be had in a 54/55-ish foot boat. I think that to get what we want is going to require a 60-65 ft boat and if I had to guess, a boat that big starts to be really big and time consuming for a couple with kids to operate and maintain. That has nothing to do with money --even if you only write checks, you still have to address the maintenance and issues. If you need to do an oil change, you can write a check or DIY but if you have to tear apart the galley/kitchen sink to get at the motor, then that puts the boat (galley) offline for a period of time regardless of DIY or writing the check.

I'm really trying to keep boat models/styles/brands out of this topic. We are not looking at typical production boats but at the same time, we are trying to narrow down based on our set of criteria: draft, cabins, tanks, sailplan, center cockpit, etc. If I like a boat because it has solid lifelines throughout and she likes a boat because the lines look sexy (and she thinks the solid lifeline boat looks ugly), then happy wife, happy life: A stainless fabrication shop can extend out and make solid push/pulpit for cheap --again, happy wife, happy life. Doesn't matter the brand and I'm not looking for "I sold my XYZ brand boat that was terrible and bought an ABC boat and have never had problems".

At what point does a boat that is 3-5 feet smaller make a difference?

Thank you. Hopefully we will find a boat by end of February, 2021.

Probably the ONLY thing that we would consider in terms of size is going a little bigger so that we have the space to modify stairs to make it easier for dogs and grandparents to get in/out of the cabin.

Thanks.

I realize I'm a bit old school, But kids always meant chores when I was young (besides they'll need something to keep them busy). The HR's you mentioned come with a dedicated engine room so you don't have to disassemble anything to do service. Monohulls in the 47' to 54' range have limted cabins which may be an issue with the kids. The dogs could care less as long as they can be within five feet of you. You really should consider a catamaran for the living space and ease of movement if you think companion ways will be an issue. There are a lot of used cats, in good shape, that can be had for far less than an HR, Oyster or Amel so price won't be an issue if your budget is in that range.

[contrail]

I agree that a catamaran is worth considering, since the added space can make maintenance easier. I live on a 1999 Leopard 45, which is roughly equivalent to a 55 foot monohull and have done so for 16 years. Prior to that, I lived aboard a 33 foot mono for 19 years. I singlehanded the 33 and I singlehand the cat, and have skippered the cat in charter for most of my time with it. The 33 footer was well equipped, but nothing like the bigger cat. However, almost everything was hard to get at. On the cat, by contrast, everything is super easy to get at. It's almost like working in a workshop except for the bilge pumps (go figure). I literally never have those projects where you spend hours getting at the bolt on the back of something. I did have those days on the smaller mono. On the cat, I have two engines, a generator a watermaker, three airconditioners, three refrigerator systems, two fresh water systems, four heads and six showers, for starters. Quite a bit of stuff. But not bad for maintenance, due, I think, to the fact that the early Leopards, like mine, were specifically designed for charter with the Moorings, and the Moorings was interested in not wasting time and effort because access was difficult. Even a tank or engine or generator or mast can be removed in short order. I was amazed.


All of which goes to say that I would see if I could get on one of the boats you are considering, with your wife, and go to each system and figure out how you would need to maintain it. Only then would I decide on the boat, and what systems you want, with her input and realization of what will be involved. And, don't forget to include cats, which may be more suited to what you intend to do. Best of luck.

[pcmm]

A lot of the answer is going to depend on where you are in the world. American's ( generalizing here) tend to have larger boats than most other countries. Where I am on Lake Ontario (Canadian side). anything over 40ft is considered to be big and much over 45 is going to cause you problems getting a slip and getting hauled out for the winter. Getting into harbour with anything with more than 6ft draft is going to cause issues too!

If you even think about a Cat on Lake Ontario...its going to be even more expensive as you're going to need to hire a crane just for you unless you have beam under 20ft

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Here is an example

Odd that you gave ISSUMA as an example. Quite a remarkable boat, made for Antarctic/Arctic sailing (and has done both)... currently lockdowned in Newfoundland.

http://www.issuma.com/rhudson/issuma...umaDetails.htm
https://www.sailblogs.com/member/rhudson/#top

[Emouchet]

Maintenance is a big part of full time cruising. This is the reality. Watch the Youtube sailing channels. There is always something.

At every anchorage I have been for more than a day or 2, if you start talking to the neighbors, you will find there is at least a boat stucked, waiting for parts or cannot move until this or that is fixed.

Somebody even said that "Sailing around the word is actually fixing your boat in remote location". This means something.

The more systems you will have on your boat, the more time you will spend maintaining them or fixing them.

Having money will help as you can pay someone to do the job. But you will not be cruising during that time. And sometime, you may need to wait significant time (weeks...) to get it done, unless you decide you can live without this or that.

[DockDoc]

My daughters age 15, and 18 have for the past 2 years done all the oil changes, fluid changes, climbed the mast (well hoisted up), scraping the bottom, and when we hauled out helped take part the sail drives, clean the folding props and much more. My 15-year-old and I just winterized (which I had never done before) and she was a huge help.

I can manage my 42 foot cat by myself, sailing, anchoring, getting on and off the dock etc. It's a lot easier with my daughters, good with semi knowledgeable crew, and almost tolerable with my wife ( I am very likely the irritant in this situation nit my lovely wife). My sailing buddy sails his 57 foot 2009 amel essentially solo with the wife and kids helping.

As for maintenance, it's easy and hard. Why? Because there are two types.

EASY Proactive maintenance. This is all the stuff that is written down and explained in a manual, with directions, amounts, and time periods. Oils, Fluids, sails, etc. If you can not do this part solo, or afford to have someone do it you are going to be miserable and dangerous. Don't sail.

HARD Reactive Matinence All the stuff you didn't even know you had to check. This list could be very small based on your boat and your experience, or overwhelming based on the same two factors.

I did fine in the first category, and not so well in the second. I miss-matched my experience and the volume of boat. I had not the proper experience, too much desire and money and bought a boat too large I wasn't qualified for. Do not believe all the BS about "we had no sailing experience, started a youtube channel, lost weight, got smarter and every problem that came up we solved in a 15 minute video whilst in our bikinis". That's not reality.
The ocean gives no **#+$ about your desires and money, experience it has some modicum of respect for.

Thru many hard, exhausting, embarrassing and expensive lessons, I finally got to a steady state of being able to understand my boat, it's intricacies and responsibilities. In my defense, I am/was very acutely aware of what I am/was deficient in and worked hard to fill in the gaps. I also sailed my boat, a lot compared to most new sailors. I put 1100 KM on it in the first 2 months I owned it, things broke I had no clue how to fix, at sea, and I had to deal with it. Since then have sailed another 3000+ miles. Many out to sea and not just bobbing along in the Bahamas. I've added a huge amount to my knowledge base, but I know there is more to learn.

So to summarize, if you have a lot of experience and get a nice made Amel or equivalent you can probably safely go pretty big, 50-65 feet. I sailed comfortably with 6 of us, no dogs, on an older 1970s S&S 48 swan. My buddy's 2009 Amel is a super sail, built like a tank, looks like a Bently and would accommodate your needs as well. Many features such as side boarding, not transom boarding help those who aren't as able-bodied.

If you don't have much experience you're going to be pretty unhappy with a big boat, they require a lot of attention and money. The less attention you pay to them, the more money you will.

Good luck!

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

I realize I'm a bit old school, But kids always meant chores when I was young (besides they'll need something to keep them busy). The HR's you mentioned come with a dedicated engine room so you don't have to disassemble anything to do service. Monohulls in the 47' to 54' range have limted cabins which may be an issue with the kids. The dogs could care less as long as they can be within five feet of you. You really should consider a catamaran for the living space and ease of movement if you think companion ways will be an issue. There are a lot of used cats, in good shape, that can be had for far less than an HR, Oyster or Amel so price won't be an issue if your budget is in that range.

I might add that a the big difference in the length of cats shows up in the cockpit size which is a big deal as the cockpit will be your family room most of the time. The salons are only slightly bigger but there will be more space in the cabins due to the longer hulls which tends just to lead to more heads as the beds will almost always be queen size regardless of the length. While the larger cat will have more storage, you should be hesitant about over loading the boat - cats are far more weight senitive than mono hulls.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

I might add that a the big difference in the length of cats shows up in the cockpit size which is a big deal as the cockpit will be your family room most of the time. The salons are only slightly bigger but there will be more space in the cabins due to the longer hulls which tends just to lead to more heads as the beds will almost always be queen size regardless of the length. While the larger cat will have more storage, you should be hesitant about over loading the boat - cats are far more weight senitive than mono hulls.

Not necessarily. According to the Sailing Zatara folks their 56’ Prestige cat can handle more weight than their previous 5x’ Beneteau.

But a cat has a LOT more surface area on deck and hulls - that’s a lot more cleaning (both outside and in) and polishing/waxing if you’re into that. Underwater the cat is easier to clean as the hulls are narrower and shallower and the minikeels (if present) aren’t as deep.

[Cliffhanger]

Another important consideration is draft. As boats get bigger, the keels tend to get deeper. Depending on where you sail this may not be an issue but I sail on the Queensland coast where draft of 2m and above can be a real liability. One of the reasons why there are so many catamarans in Qld. Another consideration is the availability of marina berths. The bigger the boat, the less options there are. Again, this might not be a problem in the areas you plan to sail.

[Cliffhanger]

Another important consideration is draft. As boats get bigger, the keels tend to get deeper. Depending on where you sail this may not be an issue but I sail on the Queensland coast where draft of 2m and above can be a real liability. One of the reasons why there are so many catamarans in Qld. Another consideration is the availability of marina berths. The bigger the boat, the less options there are. Again, this might not be a problem in the areas you plan to sail.

[FabioC]

We are going through similar considerations, albeit from a slightly different perspective: we are looking for the largest boat that would feel "easy" for us to handle, meaning we would feel comfortable sailing her in all conditions and maneuvering in the marina.

We currently have a 34-footer, which is an "easy" size for just the two of us for daily sails and short weekend cruises, but feels too small for extensive cruising and ocean passages (not that we could not go on an ocean passage with her, many couples have done it with even much smaller boats; it is just not too appealing for us, we would want a larger boat with more stability and comforts).

She feels "easy" to the two of us because we can handle her in heavy winds, for example we are comfortable flying and jibing even our largest spinnaker in 15-20 knots of wind and docking, undocking, and maneuvering in tight spaces in all conditions (not that those maneuvers cannot be challenging, but they are not "stressful" because of the boat size). There are some tasks that test us a bit even at this size. For example, sheeting in the jib tight with 20+ knots of wind is quite an effort for my wife, raising the main is a good workout even for me, flying the spinnaker in 15+ knot is definitely a workout, and so on.

With significantly larger sails or a taller mast, those same tasks may become real chores and stressful. If handling the boat becomes "uncomfortable" because of size, we could end up, for example, missing opportunities to go out at the spur of the moment, regardless of the wind, as we do with our "little", "easy" current boat.

The tradeoff is not so immediate, as there are many variables to consider. For example, a longer boat would have larger sails and a taller mast, and may be more challenging to handle in tight spaces, but also would have larger winches, perhaps at least one electrical winch, perhaps a bow truster, etc.

My sense is that the sweet spot in length for a couple like us, to feel comfortable that she is not too much boat to handle for the kind of sailing we want to do is in the 44' range. It can easily be longer (even a lot longer) than that if, for example, one added in-mast furling, smaller jibs, cruising spinnakers, etc., but those compromises would not be aligned with the kind of sailing we like to do.

So, I guess there is not a single answer, it very much depends on how the boat is ultimately rigged and the kind of use one wants to optimize her for.

[apacit]

How much help will you get from your crew? I need to be able to carry my largest sail by myself. Couldn’t do that on something the size you ate talking about. Also be sensitive to operating and maintenance costs. Find % of purchase cost rule of thumb estimates. You are talking about a huge boat that won’t clear bridges or easily find marinas available. That means more time in open water. Is your crew ready for that? For some it works, but be sure before you commit. If you have to ask you may already know the answer.

Best of luck,
John

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by apacit

How much help will you get from your crew? I need to be able to carry my largest sail by myself. Couldn’t do that on something the size you ate talking about. Also be sensitive to operating and maintenance costs. Find % of purchase cost rule of thumb estimates. You are talking about a huge boat that won’t clear bridges or easily find marinas available. That means more time in open water. Is your crew ready for that? For some it works, but be sure before you commit. If you have to ask you may already know the answer.



Best of luck,

John

When does one need to carry their heaviest sail - the mainsail?

Clearing bridges is really only an issue for the US ICW, so depending on where the OP is that may not be an issue.

[Mag3]

lots of good information/advice in here especially wrt systems not size being the focus.

3 additional thoughts:

1) ease of access to systems for maintenance / repair is a must as it's not a question of if, but when.

2) modern systems have actually simplified certain things... composting heads simplify. NMEA backboned systems make troubleshooting electronics easier... once cable run... etc.

3) Buy the boat for the version of you 5+ years older - read: less agile, stiffer, slower, and less strong.

[Mike Banks]

A boat is too big id f it draws too much water for you to anchor safely from storms, or will not let you access some waterways, or if you can not afford the time or money to maintain it. Other than those times--bigger is always more comfortable--but you pay DEARLY for that extra apace and comfort.