Beneteau oceanis 55

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Polux, You definitely have a ton of knowledge floating around in your cranium. You must have been a great engineer/architect at some point in your life, but man...you need to find a less abrasive way to deliver your message when in disagreement with someone else's argument. The manner in which you so matter-of-factly dismiss competing opinions makes you appear brash and arrogant.

I find myself wanting to disagree with you simply because of the way you communicate.
....

Sorry. Probably you are right but I can help it when someone come time after time with the same empty arguments.

I am not the type of guy that are fanatic by any type of boat and I like a lot of them and for my one use I don't even have a type of boat that comes from the line of Open boats.

I have no bias for any type of boat, including narrow boats with lots of its weight on the ballast, in fact I like them a lot, even if I personally prefer a moderately beamed boat (that does not mean a boat with a narrow transom) with a considerable ballast at the end of a long keel.

But I guess I cannot stand the irrational bias of others and a not rational discussion about things I like.

Again, I am sorry. I am out of here. If you or someone want to learn something about stability, not a big deal, but the basics, can have a look at my blog where on the index you will find several posts about it. Nothing fancy or complicated, it was meant as an easily non biased comprehensible explanation.

Than you will understand why I said that article on the Yachting world is wrong in so many counts in what regards the appreciation of those ratios, for instance regarding the importance of B/D. Talking about B/D and saying that these or that boats should have this B/D for offshore work, without referring to the draft and the type of keel makes not any sense.

If that Contessa was made today, had a modern keel with a torpedo it would need a much lesser B/D ratio for having exactly the same stability curve. And if had more draft, has most today cruiser racers today have, even less.

That is kind of tiring to see people believing in all kind of bull or have an argumentation that has not any logic or sustainability. It just makes me lose my temper

[robert sailor]

Ok let's leave it there, my point was a modern high production cruiser was not anywhere near as capable in offshore conditions as an old Contessa 32, that was my point. The average buyer on this site looks at high production boats and your wanting to compare the Contessa which was also a very high production boat to low production race boats, simply not a viable comparison. As you mentioned yourself the Contessa 32 has been in production longer than almost any other cruiser. Yes of course without a canting keel all boats will stay inverted including the Contessa 32 but with a range of 156 degrees the Contessa 32 would easily right itself as just the momentum of the roll would have it back on its feet immediately. The Bavaria could easily stay inverted until a wave helped in righting it.
Your right, there are tens of thousands of boats out there but only a handfull cross oceans and only a tiny group venture into the high latitudes. There are lots of things happening to boats at sea that you and I are not aware of and to tell you the truth rolling a boat would be the least of my concerns although it is fun to debate it. You have yourself a good day, R

[neilpride]

The Contessa cant sport a modern keel Paolo, you miss the point, the hull form and appendages with the keel, topsides ,bow entry etccc weight distribution is what make the Contessa unique...

[robert sailor]

Polux I meant to send you a pic of a 45 ft Perry designed boat that pitch poled and rolled in the Queens birthday storm off of New Zealand. It was during the normal cruising season and the forecasters and models just didn't get it in time before a slew of boats left for Tonga and Fiji. The mast was wrapped completely around the boat as the video showed from an aircraft. After that happened I started to take a much deeper interest in choosing my next boat. If cruisers watched that documentary I'm sure it would raise the hair on the back of their necks. Rare event for sure but when your in the middle of the ocean in a boat designed for really rough weather you tend to sleep much better. It's one of the reasons I liked one of your recommendations on the GS LC series. It had a real bilge and all the heavy weight was in it which really adds to the stability not with standing the storage. On high production cruisers almost all the weight is higher and it reduces the stability range as you add the thousands of pounds all cruisers do.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux I meant to send you a pic of a 45 ft Perry designed boat that pitch poled and rolled in the Queens birthday storm off of New Zealand. It was during the normal cruising season and the forecasters and models just didn't get it in time before a slew of boats left for Tonga and Fiji. The mast was wrapped completely around the boat as the video showed from an aircraft. After that happened I started to take a much deeper interest in choosing my next boat. If cruisers watched that documentary I'm sure it would raise the hair on the back of their necks. Rare event for sure but when your in the middle of the ocean in a boat designed for really rough weather you tend to sleep much better. It's one of the reasons I liked one of your recommendations on the GS LC series. It had a real bilge and all the heavy weight was in it which really adds to the stability not with standing the storage. On high production cruisers almost all the weight is higher and it reduces the stability range as you add the thousands of pounds all cruisers do.

Also interesting to note that the pitchpoled boat, Destiny (a Norseman 447), managed to stay afloat for months on her own and eventually washed up on an island where she was stripped and burned by locals.

I'm also not so sure she actually pitchpoled. I rather suspect that it was a broach on the face of a very large wave that lead to a sorta 3/4 roll rather than a "traditional" pitchpole where the bow digs in and the stern goes right over without any yaw being involved. Horrible experience either way, exacerbated by Dale's fractured femur in the event.

Jim

[robert sailor]

Interesting history Jim, I wasn't aware of the boats demise later. Sure was a moving interview with that couple, she was quite the gal.

[brownoarsman]

I can't believe that after reading this thread the OP hasn't put money down on a pogo 50!

If I could try to boil the most recent argument between polux and RS down, I think it is this. RS believes that, once rolled, a contessa, due to its narrower overall beam and thus lower initial stability when inverted, will pop back up faster/easier than a Pogo.

Polux believes that a Pogo, due to its ability to slip through a breaking wave and its keel weight way down as well its wide beam initial stability, is much less likely to flip in the first place (a point RS does not disagree with). The contentious point would appear to be whether a pogo's keel weight, on a higher moment arm, will grant enough lever action/ultimate stability to overcome the higher initial stability that is a result of its pizza slice-like shape and self right faster/easier than a contessa.

Do I have it right gentlemen? If so, choose your weapons, turn opposite, walk ten paces, and wait for my mark

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[neilpride]

Pogo 50 ,slip through a breaking wave,, really??

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Also interesting to note that the pitchpoled boat, Destiny (a Norseman 447), managed to stay afloat for months on her own and eventually washed up on an island where she was stripped and burned by locals.

I'm also not so sure she actually pitchpoled. I rather suspect that it was a broach on the face of a very large wave that lead to a sorta 3/4 roll rather than a "traditional" pitchpole where the bow digs in and the stern goes right over without any yaw being involved. Horrible experience either way, exacerbated by Dale's fractured femur in the event.

Jim

I watched two boats on moorings at Catalina Island side by side take incoming waves at the Isthmus, arranged bow out by the harbormaster, in a very bad late 80's storm. We were at Cat Harbor on an Ericson 38 at the time (island back side). The two were Norseman 447 and Kelly Peterson 44. This was between the main Isthmus harbor and Fourth of July harbor, and there is s dirt road you can walk about 300 ft above the water there and a point of land that offers a great downward view into the ocean. We watched these two boats for about 1/2 an hour, since we were thinking of moving onto a Norseman after meeting with the main Norseman importer Wally Freeman in Marina Del Ray and looking over their inventory.

The Norseman's bow deck area was awash about 1/2 the time a large wave came through, and the KP never got her capstan area wet. The Norseman's stern was about 40% wider, and the bow entry angle (again from our overhead vantage point) was about 30% narrower. Total pitching and rolling angles, viewed from watching the masts against the shore on the opposite side of the harbor, were close to the same. I think the Norseman is a heavier boat, also, but the aft buoyancy was not balanced with the narrow entry (less forward buoyancy).

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Ericson38

I watched two boats on moorings at Catalina Island side by side take incoming waves at the Isthmus, arranged bow out by the harbormaster, in a very bad late 80's storm. We were at Cat Harbor on an Ericson 38 at the time (island back side). The two were Norseman 447 and Kelly Peterson 44. This was between the main Isthmus harbor and Fourth of July harbor, and there is s dirt road you can walk about 300 ft above the water there and a point of land that offers a great downward view into the ocean. We watched these two boats for about 1/2 an hour, since we were thinking of moving onto a Norseman after meeting with the main Norseman importer Wally Freeman in Marina Del Ray and looking over their inventory.

The Norseman's bow deck area was awash about 1/2 the time a large wave came through, and the KP never got her capstan area wet. The Norseman's stern was about 40% wider, and the bow entry angle (again from our overhead vantage point) was about 30% narrower. Total pitching and rolling angles, viewed from watching the masts against the shore on the opposite side of the harbor, were close to the same. I think the Norseman is a heavier boat, also, but the aft buoyancy was not balanced with the narrow entry (less forward buoyancy).

Interesting observation! Possibly due to inherent differences in hull shape, but also possibly due to the Norseman having a lot of weight in the bow (lots of chain and anchor weight, or other such).

Hard for me to believe that Bob Perry could get things that wrong, but not impossible. I wonder if there are any norseman owners here on CF that could comment on this ?

Jim

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Polux

But talking about only a bit more than two times diference it would be to forgot the importance of the dynamic stability and regarding that, while only a part of a breaking wave energy will be turned on a Pogo 12.50 (or similar boat) into a rotating moment, a hugely bigger part of a wave energy would be directed in a rotating moment on the case of the Contessa 32 and that due to the hugely bigger trip effect of the big area of the Contessa keel. Look at the difference in keel area surface:



That triping effect (that prevents the wave energy to be dissipated in a sliding movement) is proportional to the immersed area of the keel and the almost absence of it is what makes aluminium French centerboarders, that normally have a worse static stability than keel ballasted monohulls, so seaworthy.

The effect is described here on drawings on an old book by Eric Tabarly that had a big knowledge regarding both types of boats and keels. Note that what was then a small keel surface is a big surface now, having modern keels less surface area. [/IMG]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Pogo 50 ,slip through a breaking wave,, really??

Don't waggle your finger at me, Neil!

I'm only trying to sum up about ten pages of back and forth into something I can understand. I've quoted the relevant text from Polux above and you'll have to take up any issues around Pogo side-slip that you have with him

[Polux]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

Don't waggle your finger at me, Neil!

I'm only trying to sum up about ten pages of back and forth into something I can understand. I've quoted the relevant text from Polux above and you'll have to take up any issues around Pogo side-slip that you have with him

Since you are curious about that that, it is a situation that is many times described by mini sailors, that have 22ft boats that weight about 900kg, when they are hit by a breaking wave. No way those boats could survive that only with static stability, since that due to their very light weight it is necessarily a small one, even if with a very good GZ curve. They rely on a ver good dynamic stability.

Obviously only by miracle someone would have recorded on movie a situation like that since with that kind of sea they have more to worry about but you have here a very rare image showing just that, one boat of that type sliding away on a breaking wave. It is a 40class racer on a circumnavigation race, a boat that has about the same hull of a Pogo 12.50. Look at min 11.13.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OROPtBO7nM

or here with a VOR hit by a big wave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrKQgJykdO4

The boat did to reach a big heel angle (in what regards reserve stability) and is sliding laterally: Look at the clouds.

[brownoarsman]

It almost looks like in that first video, the boat is light enough to float over the break, so that all that is left to catch is the keel - pretty cool!

Also wanted to say thanks for posting all the Pogo 30-like variants. I had been thinking I would get an older catamaran like an Iroquois 30 for my next boat for both performance and draft reasons, but having pogo-like boats available at relatively low new prices definitely changes the equation.

I couldn't believe that a Pogo 30 could be had for $85k USD while an oceanis 31 is $120k. Obviously there's a big difference in fitout and likely options included as well, but if you're willing to make the compromises TJ describes in another thread, at least price doesn't have to be one of them!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Polux]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

It almost looks like in that first video, the boat is light enough to float over the break, so that all that is left to catch is the keel - pretty cool!

Also wanted to say thanks for posting all the Pogo 30-like variants. I had been thinking I would get an older catamaran like an Iroquois 30 for my next boat for both performance and draft reasons, but having pogo-like boats available at relatively low new prices definitely changes the equation.

I couldn't believe that a Pogo 30 could be had for $85k USD while an oceanis 31 is $120k. Obviously there's a big difference in fitout and likely options included as well, but if you're willing to make the compromises TJ describes in another thread, at least price doesn't have to be one of them!

Real sorry to give you this sad notice but a Pogo 30 cannot cost the same price of an Oceanis 31. It is not just possible: much better built, much better hardware and a good interior makes for a much more expensive boat. Were do you saw that price?

The Pogo 30 is a lot of fun to sail and at least one had made the ARC sailing fast and it cab go to swallow waters with the swing keel but this is the price of the boat bought on the shipyard (no transport) and with the fixed keel: 90 333 €
They used to have on line the price of options but anymore
That price is without sails, electronics or autopilot

http://www.pogostructures.com/upload...ist-pogo30.pdf
http://www.pogostructures.com/uploads/doc-pogo30-en.pdf

Here you have one with 3 years and they are asking 159 000 euros, with a swing keel (probably will sell for less and this is a boat that had paid 20% VAT)
https://www.lemillesabords.com/pogo-...ion-10648.html

If you were in Europe I would say to you : buy that Sominou 29 that is on the same advert for 65 000 euros. Almost the same fun with a not so good interior.
https://www.lemillesabords.com/sormi...ion-10963.html
Maybe you can just pot it on a container and sent it to the states?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAeJjGa_2MU

[brownoarsman]

Ahh, I had seen a price quoted here for $83k euros: http://www.yachtingworld.com/reviews...o-30-on-test/3
and with the current euro-dollar exchange rate ... Well, the less said the better!

The oceanis 31 appears to start at 120 USD as listed on their site: http://www.beneteau.com/us/oceanis/oceanis-31

I imagined there would be some substantial differences between option packages and so on, but I would think that the Pogo could save substantially on price in the fitting out (no liner, no pasted veneer wood, two burner stove vs. an oven) and all the little things Beneteau puts in to make the oceanis more comfortable/luxurious.

I haven't gotten to see any of these modern cruiser designs in the US. None were at the Annapolis boat show that I saw, though we did have some fast cats like gunboat. I did look up where to charter a pogo 30, and it looks like there are a couple in charter in Brittany, so I may do that in the interim!

Edit: upon further investigation I see the oceanis 31 price is ready-to-sail with pick-up on the US east coast; so quite a bit different than a hull ex-factory price! Though still maybe not so far apart; perhaps a similarly equipped Pogo would be 30-50% more expensive?