Bestevaer 49 vs Orion 49 - which is the better aluminum pilothouse?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Thanks.

was there some specific logic for that number - eg a target harbour you wanted to be able to enter? or was it more just a 'generally useful balance between performance and accessibility'?

No target harbour.

We are not even sure what country we will be in next week .

[Walawala11]

I had made travel arrangement to attend the KM Open Day and visit the De Gebroeders van Enkhuizen yard next week. Unfortunately, the Netherlands now require a 5-10 day quarantine period for vaccinated travels with a negative COVID test from the U.S. This is not possible for me, so I cancelled my trip.

Originally Posted by dannc

The KM open day is September 18th and 19th. Real Soon Now.

Wish we could go. We had to cancel our 2020 trip and then the trip in 2021. Maybe 2022 will happen.

Later,
Dan

[Bigmarv]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Dear original poster. If you google “advantages of twin keels” you will find a number of articles containing the opinions of the professional yacht design and building community. Some designers such as Naval Architect Douglas Phillips-Birt, feel twin keels are the “most exciting breakthrough since the Bermuda rig”.
Please also read the Patrick Bray Yacht Design article on the advantages of twin keels. Yachting Monthly 3/20/2019 Why Twin Keels.
Sirius Yachts new builds are about 70 to 80% twin keels.
Kasten Marine also has some advice. You could post on yachtdesign.net as well.
I think there are other, important advantages such as directional stability and roll dampening during heavy weather sailing.
My technical training in fluid mechanics was at a research laboratory close to MIT. My teacher was a fighter aircraft designer. Sailing has a lot to do with two fluids.
The keel design we chose was based upon strength, directional stability and roll dampening. Yachts sit a lot. Sometimes on the bottom, lots of time at anchor.
Rolling day and night at anchor? Skidding sideways down a huge wave offshore in a storm? Not for us. We felt the increased cost of construction and the significant increase in strength was well worth it. Lightly built fin keels are nice for racing but that’s not our design criteria. Again, seek out professionals with proven experience in aluminum yacht design and construction.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew of professional boatbuilders.

Hey Mark, I'd be really interested to see some pics of the design/build of your boat. Especially of the keels. Are they online somewhere?

Cheers

[Manateeman]

My wife has an expression I love about aluminum yachts. “If it’s not Dutch, it’s not much.”
Somehow my post was completely mis understood.
Why, I don’t know but I guess it’s my reaction to people who state they “built” their boat, when if fact all they did was to hire someone to build it for them. It’s no easy matter to give a designer the criteria you wish to see on paper.
Some owners have very specific ideas, some just leave it up to the designer and the builder. My point tried to state that being involved in the process does not make you either the designer nor the builder.
What I wanted to get across to the original poster was to trust the professionals.
I’m not saying that if you are not a yacht designer nor a builder, your opinions are worthless. My comment is about assessing the value and weight that experience adds to opinion.
Mark

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

being involved in the process does not make you either the designer nor the builder.

Seems like a hmmm indistinct point.

How do you feel about the experience of a project manager or owner representative? They are neither designers nor builders (although many are employed by builders). But many are vastly experienced and knowledgeable about a very wide range of issues.

How do you feel about an owner who got a bare hull and then finished the rest of the boat himself (interior and systems), and did a proper job of it? He may well be 'pro' (from previous experiences) at aspects related to modern boat building.

And how do you feel about people who have sailed quite long distances to difficult places in a range of vessels? They probably have a range of knowledge and value that neither (most) pro builders nor (most) designers have.

How do you feel about the 3rd party engineering outfits that many good designers and builders use? They are not designers nor builders but probably know more about loads and structures than either.

My point is that excellent builders and designers sure ofc bring knowledge and value to the process and decisions . . . . but they do not trump all other sources of knowledge. It depends on the specific question being asked, which party might have the most insight. The OP's question here is one that noelex 77 as an example would have direct experience and value as an experienced voyager and first owner of one of the two boats in question - he probably brings significantly more value than a builder who does not know anything specific about the boats in question.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Walawala11

I had made travel arrangement to attend the KM Open Day and visit the De Gebroeders van Enkhuizen yard next week. Unfortunately, the Netherlands now require a 5-10 day quarantine period for vaccinated travels with a negative COVID test from the U.S. This is not possible for me, so I cancelled my trip.

Yeah, it really is not possible for us to travel to the NL either and I really wonder if we will be able to do so next year.

The KM open day used to be in the spring, which is when we really want to visit the NL, but KM moved the open day to September because of the pandemic. I suspect travel to NL from the US is going to be problematic into the first part of 2022. Hopefully, that will have been resolved by September.

Later,
Dan

[Manateeman]

A manatee is not an Orca even if they wear a black and white tee shirt, black mittens and big white wax teeth.
They do think this will get the Orcas laughing. They want go go to sea world on Halloween to yell “the Orcas have escaped the tank.” I told them I’m not posting their bond and none of the attorneys in our family will represent them.
Sorry. I get some threads mixed up. Anyway...
A professional sailor might also be a professional designer or a professional boatbuilder. He or she could be good or bad at any combination. I never said the opinion of sailors was inferior to that of professional naval architects or professional boatbuilders. I suggested the OP talk to professionals.
What’s the big deal here. How is that a bad suggestion.
Somehow, stating ones credentials seem to irritate some people. Credentials are just facts ...one can have a medical degree and be a bad physician. Some people get really good care with a witch doctor.
I think quoting people by name is rude. Almost nasty. You didn’t write them and ask. That used to be what some people did in polite society...not just reporters.
Lacks manners. Not polite. Lacks class. Take your pick. In the end, could you just state YOUR opinion without referring to what was stated before. Rude.
See...that’s my opinion. I don’t think it’s necessary to keep track of the discussion to quote people in or out of context or to use the entire post or just segments of the post. I’m not exactly sure what a troll is...nor do I care since I don’t have a garden. Bugs, worms, dirt. Yuck. Anyway... back to Quotes.
Quoting Shakespeare or a published science article ? Well there is a reason to do that...I don’t see the need on the forum so I just feel quoting is rude.
Why do some people insist on pointing to each and every statement someone posts. We are not idiots. We can read. There is really no need to state “ I disagree with what you posted...blah, blah blah”...so I think...blah, blah, blah.
Opinions don’t please everyone. SO WHAT. What is gained by repeating what someone said when you don’t like it to begin with. What’s the point in publishing your opinion of another forum member. Who cares. Rude, self centered narcissistic people are everywhere. I guess they are now called trolls or something. I don’t get all the anger I see on the forum. My manatee crew thinks I’m an idiot, they destroy the boat, and they offgas frequently. I love them.
Since I don’t call out or quote anyone of my manatees by name, I think it’s more in keeping with the be nice rule of the forum.
Well Halloween isn’t too far away and I’ve got to help the manatee crew with their Orca costumes.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew lurking at a marina near you.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

...
I think quoting people by name is rude. Almost nasty. You didn’t write them and ask. That used to be what some people did in polite society...

Right now, on this discussion, there are multiple conversations taking place among almost a dozen people.

To be polite, one should quote the person they are responding too, especially if there are obvious different topics being discussed, since it can be very difficult to know which post goes to the multiple conversations that are occurring. This happens on almost all discussions and that is the way conversations happen.

Quoting simply helps maintain clarity, it is not an act of rudeness.

Later,
Dan

[Jim Cate]

Quoting simply helps maintain clarity, it is not an act of rudeness.

I agree with this! About the only reason to not want to be quoted would be if one was embarrassed about what one had written and not want to be held responsible for it.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I agree with this! About the only reason to not want to be quoted would be if one was embarrassed about what one had written and not want to be held responsible for it.

Jim

I have to agree that quoting posts is essential for internet politeness. Sometimes, it also keeps me focused on the question the poster has asked, or the points in support or against an issue.

And, to that, I would like to add, if you do post something and you subsequently feel embarrassed by it, you can report your own post, and request the moderators remove or edit it. In the latter case, it helps if you tell us what you meant to say. We may not remove a post--it will depend on what has followed it, but it's worth a try. Editing is usually more doable.

In a way, the internet's kind of like carpentry: measure three times, cut once. Proofread the content before you post it. Fix the spelling errors. Ask yourself if you would not post "that" if you weren't annoyed.

**********

And now, back to the discussion about the Bestevaer vs. the Orion......

Ann

[dannc]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

..
In a way, the internet's kind of like carpentry: measure three times, cut once. Proofread the content before you post it. Fix the spelling errors. Ask yourself if you would not post "that" if you weren't annoyed.
...

Three times!?

More like six, seven, or eight times and then wonder how I still messed it up....

I have spent quite a bit of time writing up a post. Thought about it. Cut and pasted the text into notepad for further consultation with Me, My Self and I. Then never posted what I wrote. Done this many, many, many times.

Often what I do post is not for the person being quoted, for various reasons, but for the reader...

Later,
Dan

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by dannc

Three times!?

More like six, seven, or eight times and then ...

yea, and then autocorrect still messes up.

On the thread topic . . . . both boats are awesome, can't go wrong with either. I personally would go with the Bestevaer, but that is a matter of highly personal factors. I think the more important thing for you would be which yard and designer you feel more Sympatico with. You want to feel that they completely understand and emphasize with your priorities and esthetics, as there are many little decisions along the way and you want them to intuitively make them just as you would.

I would also make sure you can spend a bunch of time at the yard as it is being built (at the very least a few days a month). And I would consider hiring an owner's rep/project manager - they can pay big dividends - this is a bit on the small size for that but still probably worthwhile to consider especially if you have less time to be able to spend at the yard.

[Element123]

We are enjoying our Xmas holiday at the moment at the Dutch island Terschelling.
Many nice boats in the harbor at the moment. Among others: two Orion 49’s, a Bestevaer 49 and a Bestewind 50 (polyester version of the Bestevaer 49). I would trade my 39feet average white boat for any of these.
But there are clear differences between the Orion and Bestevaer. The last one has a more classic look of a pilot cutter. Beautiful. The Orions look much more modern and carry their beam much more aft, like most modern designs nowadays. This gives much more interior volume and also a much wider cockpit with a fixed cockpit table.
So it all is about personal preferences.
For the look, I would opt for the Bestevaer. For practicality to live aboard, I would have the Orion.

[GordMay]

Greetings and belated welcome aboard the CF, Element.

[250224]

Originally Posted by Caleb_Grey

Distant Shores are doing this right now
https://youtu.be/esYdVPavwAI

Funny, you were correct in September last year and again February this year.

(Spoiler: they are doing both boats, one as a feasibility study and the other for (soon) real).