Blue Water

[markwesti]

I thought you guys were going to get scientific about DWL (hehe) . Simply what I was referring to was a heavy displacement boat would be more considered a blue water / off shore boat . FV Black Pearl what boats are on your radar ?

[FV Black Pearl]

Ive looked at so many types of boats

I like the twin keel, lifting keel type sail boats, I like the roomy boats, I like newer boats, boats loaded with navigation, water makers, solar and turn key type boats....My budget affords very little of that so I haven't chosen a name brand.
for a sailboat I wish a 420 Hunter had the same reputation as an Island packet. I wish a Lagoon 380 cost half of what it does. I have banged my head on this subject.
I like the sailboat...long range, engine running only sometimes and they are much prettier than a trawler.
I like the idea of Trawlers with big spacious cabin full size beds and the fill the tank and go part.
Thats why I joined CF. If I had not Id probably be headstrong buying the Hunter.
Now that I have joined.. Ive looked at a lot of Island Packet 35-37..early 90s models. I like them ok at least 35 foot or bigger. I looked at Beneteau and Catalinas, they are ok but still a production boat. I have been looking at one of the links a member posted and then go look at boat and prices. The Island Packet is the only one in list that I looked at heavily so far, of course more research tonight. I agreed to work for 4 weeks contract installation so my search will be nights and weekends this month. At least its local so I can come home everyday.

Ive been looking at the link you posted Markwesti

[Jim Cate]

FWIW, Island Packets are "production boats" every bit as much as Catalina et al are. They don't manufacture as many as the big name guys do, but t hey are series production vessels. The Beastever is sort of a limited production boat (hull design) but with the ability to modify the design in terms of layout, details of deck hardware and many other things, but wrapped into a well proven hull design. A very good way to build a boat, but with obvious cost implications! Then there are one-off designs, where the customer hires a naval architect to design a boat from scratch, incorporating every factor he might wish... and even then, the NA will often work from one of his previous designs as a starting point!

The real question in my view is not production vs semi-production vs custom. Rather the question is quality of build plus aptness of design for the purposes of the buyer... and sometimes these factors can be met with a garden variety of production boat.



Good hunting, Black Pearl!

Jim

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The real question in my view is not production vs semi-production vs custom. Rather the question is quality of build plus aptness of design for the purposes of the buyer... and sometimes these factors can be met with a garden variety of production boat.

Design is an interesting factor. No one wants to think they bought a boat that is not apt. *grin* I hear "I'm cruising - the boat doesn't have to be fast." "We're cruising not racing." Getting really good information is difficult as few owners want to beat up their own boat. I won't risk offending anyone with a list of the boats that have shown disappointing performance on delivery. "Sorry Mr. & Mrs. Owner but the delivery cost more because your boat is a slug." That's good for repeat business, isn't it?

As noted IP, Moody, HR, Swan, et al are production boats also. Most people think of large volume production such as Beneteau, Catalina, Jeanneau, and Hunter as "production." As long as the bones are good a lot of outfit, even built-in outfit, can be addressed.

Another factor is seakeeping, a characteristic of design. Two boats might make the same passage at the same time with one crew arriving perky and rested while the other is miserable. By the way, anyone who brings up Ted Brewer's Comfort Ratio will be consigned to an F6 passage in a particular boat with an attractive CR. I won't be joining you. *grin*

You simply can't count on seakeeping information being credible. Owners over report performance in over reported conditions at the yacht club bar.

[markwesti]

FV Black Pearl, have you ever looked at these boats ? They can be had for reasonable $'s
WESTSAIL 42 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

[AmericanVagrant]

As stated by others, whether a boat is considered "blue water" is both contentious and debatable. Basic "blue water" features to me include:

• Sound construction, from the bottom of the keel to the top of the mast (including secure keel attachment)
• Well protected cockpit (high coamings, dodger) that drains quickly
• Well protected cabin (strong windows/ports, modestly sized companionway)
• Generally high displacement/length ratio (epiphenomenal)

I also like a skeg/keel hung rudder. A lot of people emphasize handholds but I see this as too easy of a modification to be made after the fact to be taken into pre-purchase consideration. Many people feel "blue water" is a full keel. Many think a deep bilge is critical. Some folks prioritize utility, while others comfort.

Boats that are not considered "blue water" by traditionalists cross oceans daily (Beneteau).Boats that are undeniably "blue water" don't meet certain aforementioned criteria (Westsails have poorly protected cockpits).

Much of "blue water" is preferential, but not all. For instance, very few people would say that a MacGregor 26 constitutes "blue water" (but I recall at least one person arguing they were).

Probably the two most undeniably important aspects of a blue water monohull, are generally strong construction and able to self-right (in other words, have a keel). Beyond that, everyone needs to pick their own compromises.

[FV Black Pearl]

Yes I looked last night and again just now... Im not sure if its older boats or if its Water boats">blue water boats but they seem so cluttered on the deck. theres no outside area but the cockpit with just feet space. I also think Im going to have to get used to the idea that my bed may not be square I do notice some things I like about the bluewater boats Ive been looking at is there is larger fuel and water tanks. I don't want to rule out a Westsail, and not knocking them...but Im not there yet...

[FV Black Pearl]

While looking at these boats I see a lot in other countries, I don't plan to get a loan for boat but was wondering what issues if any Id have from buying a boat for example in BVI or Mexico?

[markwesti]

Hey AmericanVagrant , is this your boat ?MISTRAL 33 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Looks very cool , I can see that varnished house a mile away . Interesting comparison your boat total displacement 12,750, ballast 5,290 and LWL 25.75 . My and Ms.westie's boat 13,500 total displacement and ballast 4,200 and 23.5 LWL . I'm going to wager your boat stands on it's feet and runs . Our boat sails on it's ear and jogs at 5 kt. ... You are right about unprotected cockpit but really only in extreme cases and just like you say add on's aren't really worth the mention , I have seen people add a simple combing that fixes that problem plus on our boat we have weather cloth and a awesome dodger .

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

In naval architecture DWL is the length of the design waterline.

Displacement to length ratio is Δ/L. You have to be very careful of units. It's an empirical measure and so tonnes/ft and MT/m are quite different.

You have to be careful using metrics as most of the empirical measures date from a time when hulls were all pretty much the same. Scaling is nonlinear so you can't compare LT/ft to lbs/ft just by multiplying by 2240.

Displacement to Length Ratio (DLR) is not a simple weight divided by length equation.

DLR = [D/2,240]/[.01 x LWL]^3

D is displacment in pounds for the lightship condition, no stores, no fuel, . . ., basically the weight advertised by the boat builder.
LWL is length of waterline in feet.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Tonnes/cu ft is not non-dimensional which is the classical measure of displacement to length ratio. Volume (cu ft)/cu ft is non-dimensional. Some folks use that but it is not as common. The literature is mostly tonnes/cu ft.

And yes, you got my application of metric as a measure and not an SI unit. I'll be more careful with my vocabulary in future. *grin*

I'm with StuM on this issue, the normal use for DLR involves the formula with powers which produces a non-dimensional result.

[AmericanVagrant]

Originally Posted by markwesti

Hey AmericanVagrant , is this your boat ?MISTRAL 33 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Looks very cool , I can see that varnished house a mile away . Interesting comparison your boat total displacement 12,750, ballast 5,290 and LWL 25.75 . My and Ms.westie's boat 13,500 total displacement and ballast 4,200 and 23.5 LWL . I'm going to wager your boat stands on it's feet and runs . Our boat sails on it's ear and jogs at 5 kt. ... You are right about unprotected cockpit but really only in extreme cases and just like you say add on's aren't really worth the mention , I have seen people add a simple combing that fixes that problem plus on our boat we have weather cloth and a awesome dodger .

Hi Mark, yeah that's mine

I really like Westsails and wouldn't mind owning one in the future. The most beautiful boat on my dock is a Westsail 32, I consider them to be more or less a prime example of a classic "blue water" sailboat. Certainly more so than my Mistral, which was built as a racer/cruiser. I made significant compromises when deciding to swap my Albin Vega for the Mistral 33. Hopefully it will have been the right decision! Yet to be seen.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by FV Black Pearl

Yes I looked last night and again just now... Im not sure if its older boats or if its blue water boats but they seem so cluttered on the deck. theres no outside area but the cockpit with just feet space. I also think Im going to have to get used to the idea that my bed may not be square I do notice some things I like about the bluewater boats Ive been looking at is there is larger fuel and water tanks. I don't want to rule out a Westsail, and not knocking them...but Im not there yet...

Deck clutter is one of the reasons that drove me to design my own deck and cockpit layout on a bare hull--I wanted a sensible, big, flush cockpit and clear decks with no toe-stubbers. It can be acrobatic, trying to design all the necessary fittings into places where your foot won't find them, but I'm happy with the result, and continually tweaking things since her launch in 2009 has made her better and better. Not done tweaking yet...

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Displacement to Length Ratio (DLR) is not a simple weight divided by length equation.

Wait - let me check the wall - yep - still there. Bachelor of Science in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering from Webb Institute.

First, non-dimensional means all the terms cancel out. You have to carry all the units. Tonnes (or pounds)/cu ft (or any unit of volume) is proportional to a non-dimensional metric but is not itself non-dimensional. If you use MT and cu m the number is different. That isn't non-dimensional.

I can't find the character that prints on CF but it's an upside down Greek Delta that is used for volume to length that is non-dimensional if units are consistent.

It really doesn't matter a lot as it is an indicator and not something that is deterministic of performance. It's only useful in comparing similar hull forms.

Originally Posted by Adelie

D is displacment in pounds for the lightship condition, no stores, no fuel, . . ., basically the weight advertised by the boat builder.
LWL is length of waterline in feet.

Not useful at all. Looking at multiple conditions is indicative but not deterministic. How often does a ship or boat go to sea in lightship conditions? We look at full load, full load depleted stores, in ballast, and in ballast depleted stores.

This is why launch conditions (lightship minus a bunch of outfit) is always treated as a special case. It's also why a lot of work goes into inclining experiments to see how the builder's planned steel weight worked out. You'll find my signature on a lot of stability books. Lightship is only a reference point. No one goes to sea that way, at least not for long.

Originally Posted by Benz

Deck clutter

I agree. Cluttered decks are a sign of design laziness. German Frers, in my opinion, does a really good job of laying out very clean decks. Of course owners do all kinds of funny things that can take something pretty nice and make it less so. Cockpit enclosures come to mind.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I can't find the character that prints on CF but it's an upside down Greek Delta that is used for volume to length that is non-dimensional if units are consistent.

Nabla: ∇