Blue Water 40’ Yacht Purchase Dilemma

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

Heart of Gold, I like your thinking. Perry boats right up there, if only pullman berth came within reach.
David old jersey, Asia been there done that, there are some good boats for sale some have taken advantage of local economic repairers.
Theres some good yachts in bigger range. Not so many in my range, Not frightened of doing some repairs. Some is key word. Remember you may be miles away from home. Better I reckon to get a yacht that is useable now if your buying in remote place.

Yeah, that is always an important consideration when buying away from home (even a few hundred miles!) - they all seem to need something after purchase. But if you could fit in an extended vacation (6 months?) with the purchase / part of a buying trip........

[Patient]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

Last month, I had a short list of boats, I have a spread sheet that assisted me in divining likely boats, however with recent currency fluctuations its looks like all OS boats are now too getting too pricey. The remaining boat on my list is a local boat already imported into Aus, according to my spread sheet and allowing for length, year, construction, reputation and fit out its pure value for money. Only negative is it’s a V berth and a Double ender, but I realised some time ago that I need to compromise. But its at the top end of my comfort zone Dollar wise, (Over US$220000), I could do it with a stretch and but am I crazy thinking I can put training wheels on such a expensive boat.? Feel I must do it now or I never will.


Thanks
Oceanrider, almost!

This is of course a personal opinion, but that budget is huge, even for 40'. Decked out older Perry boats and even Valiants fall way under that.

Forgive me if I am way off base here in terms of your 'local knowledge' regarding the market of cruisers, but after spending the last 3 years pursuing that "perfect girl", in my opinion, finding something that fills in all the boxes has to do more with availability than price. Higher price absolutely does not equate quality or comfort. In fact the make that I fell in love with online, was an absolute disappointment when I sea trialed her.

If I had your budget, I would in a millisecond get a perry double ender in the 35' LOA range and spoil it with all the upgrades. I would even have enough to pay someone else to do it for me and left over change to cruise for a few years.

Some will disagree with me here, but big numbers do not always equate seaworthiness. I would not take a single one of the production boats in the $250,000 range I saw at the last boat show even across the great lakes.

My advice... make that budget 150k including all the upgrades and visit everything in person, especially the things that you absolutely did not consider to be on your list. It only makes you more aware of what your money is worth and refine your real needs.

[hanami2]

To OceanRider

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

Response to Hanami
It was with regret that I missed out on a Ovni435 6 months ago,
Oceanrider

Hi I just found a 435, 6 years old I think, very well maintained (I saw her once), fully equipped with very little miles under the hull for a boat that category. It is for sale in France 20 miles from Les Sables d'Olonne. I got it from ALUBAT I called this morning. They send me the details: price, equipment, sails, electronics as so forth and I will forward it to you but I will need a mail address.

Shipping by cargo to Auckland last year for a Cigale 16 (16m with a 2.3m queel the 435 doesn't have) was in the range of 40 000 USD. For a 435 it will be less as the price is volume based and can probably be negotiated. Could also be shipped to Singapore for less of course if you can bring her back to your place. The idea is to avoid sailing the so called 'pirate zone'.

Don't know if it will help but why not?
Initially I wanted a 435 but ALUBAT didn't build them anymore so I went for a 445 as there was none available on the second hand market at the time.
Cheers.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Patient

This is of course a personal opinion, but that budget is huge, even for 40'. Decked out older Perry boats and even Valiants fall way under that.

....

Some will disagree with me here, but big numbers do not always equate seaworthiness. I would not take a single one of the production boats in the $250,000 range I saw at the last boat show even across the great lakes.

My personal opinion is that it is wise to shop for high quality production boats, such as Swan and Baltic. The boat may be 20 years old or more but you're getting a lot of boat for the money. Very well built and great sailing qualities. My Baltic 38DP is 29 years old now but everything down below looks like it was built yesterday and it all works. Most of them have been well maintained.

These boats are so much more attractive to me than new production boats. They were made with quality in mind (were expensive in their day, too), and they were also built for true sailors, not harbour heroes. So well thought-out with blue water in mind.

For $250k you should be able to find a very nice 40 footer and have plenty left for any repairs or new sails. There is a fabulous Baltic 39 for sale in my marina in Holland for a little over $100k - and she has been fully rebuilt just one year ago, basically a brand new boat! Has been for sale ever since - a mystery as far as I'm concerned.


Onno

[s/v Beth]

If your up for it, what Patient has said makes sense. Come over to the US and buy a boat that has your heartstrings tied into it, then set it up like you want to live, then sail back home. Easy peasy if you can sail that far.

[Oceanride007]

I posed the original Question.
FYI we don't get that many quality US boats over here, must be a couple of years since I saw a caliber, passport 40 couple of years ago, we have a Valiant 42 here now but haven't seen one of those here before, so when we see quality US boats over here we may get excited. Any way, just did a snap pole on Yachtworld bluewater boats for year 2001 and US$220000 is about average.
If I could get one here for that money without paying bank Margin and its already imported (4% +15%) and its already here, wow hold me back. But I didn't ask that question I asked is a $220000 boat too expensive for having driving lessons (Training wheels). Any way comments from Patient and Newt, were a little bitter at first, but I'm coming around, it makes sense to me save money by getting an older hull, then I'm more likely to fit it out nicely, mind you thou, the search is not easy.

Thanks
Oceanrider, still boatless.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Oceanride007

US$220000 is about average [for 2001MY blue water boats].

For a 40 footer? In this market? Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Don't get confused by asking prices. You can easily get 30% off if you drive a good bargain. It's tough selling a boat at the moment.

Onno

[Oceanride007]

Response to JazzyO
Yes, but I use published figures without adjustment, I figure that this adjustment is same all countries and much the same over the years. I would have PM you but your profile doesn't appear, its enough to say I have now included Baltic DP in my search.

Oceanrider

[David_Old_Jersey]

Whether $220k is too much for a boat to "bolt on training wheels" (whatever that actually means!) is down to you (and what you have in the bank / feel comfortable spending).

But the impression I get that this would be a lot for you (as for most folks, me included!) - therefore my great caution would not be about whether the boat would be a good "trainer" but that the risk is great that your ideas will change after own use. Selling and buying again always costs (more than yer think!) in cash, time and aggro. Of course the decision also revolves around time for your plans (casting off to go extended cruising next year or in 10? - if the former then only have time for one boat anyway, so get to take a punt).

But my take is that can learn on pretty much anything. Whether the intended boat will be as much fun for use locally is a separate thing. Will also want to bear in mind that if shorthanded (solo?) that buy a boat that does not demand a full crew, even if only to make life easier rather than being impossible without a full crew.

In any event, 40 odd feet of Beneteau etc will get you anywhere (sane!) that a "proper" bluewater boat will. The big deciders are Skipper and Boat Condition - no boat design is proof against deficiencies in either of those.

Personally I would halve that boat purchase budget - cash in the bank makes life a lot more pleasant as gives more choices (on plans - onboard and voyaging).

[JazzyO]

Great post, DOJ.

I also think it is very easy to underestimate the cost of owning a boat, particularly if you have some ambitions for it to look nice and up-to-date, and sometimes just to get it working well. My boat was touted to be "perfect" but since I've bought it I have bought new sails, repainted her, replaced the rod rigging, and installed updated electronics. She had had a full refit in 2006 so it was a bit of a surprise for me that she needed new stays. If you buy a 2001 boat, be aware that such a boat is old enough to have issues and that sorting them out can easily set you back many tens of thousands of dollars. It would be a shame if the full budget went on a boat and then you haven't got the cash to make her your dream boat.

But to buy a cheap boat for training - I'm not sure. Selling it on is a hassle and likely to take long, you will lose money on it, and you're less likely to enjoy the experience knowing you wanted something else. It would be better to charter to see if you catch the sailing bug and then plump for your dreamboat. Just my $0.02


Onno

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Patient

This is of course a personal opinion, but that budget is huge, even for 40'. Decked out older Perry boats and even Valiants fall way under that.

Forgive me if I am way off base here in terms of your 'local knowledge' regarding the market of cruisers, but after spending the last 3 years pursuing that "perfect girl", in my opinion, finding something that fills in all the boxes has to do more with availability than price. Higher price absolutely does not equate quality or comfort. In fact the make that I fell in love with online, was an absolute disappointment when I sea trialed her.

If I had your budget, I would in a millisecond get a perry double ender in the 35' LOA range and spoil it with all the upgrades. I would even have enough to pay someone else to do it for me and left over change to cruise for a few years.

Some will disagree with me here, but big numbers do not always equate seaworthiness. I would not take a single one of the production boats in the $250,000 range I saw at the last boat show even across the great lakes.

My advice... make that budget 150k including all the upgrades and visit everything in person, especially the things that you absolutely did not consider to be on your list. It only makes you more aware of what your money is worth and refine your real needs.

This is quite frankly biased and nonsense. Forget ages old boat designs , which suspect gear and endless heartache , especially forget " would not take a single one of the production boats in the $250,000 range I saw at the last boat show even across the great lakes." Type comments . Talk to people , like MarkJ and others that have taken almost stock boats around the world. Production boats crossing oceans are the clear majority by the way.

If you can handle it, bigger , up to a point , IS , always better, comfort , space , speed, seaworthiness, 40-45 foot is optimum these days , under 40 is getting rarer.

Be very careful of comments like " OVNI" or Amel , one is a bit like Land Rover , a triumph of marketing over function ( I mean it has an AVS of 110 ! ) , the other is a 1million euro boat!, with complex custom engineering. ( which most people have never sailed or inspected , especially outside France)

Consider some of the sturdier production boats , certain larger Beneteaus, Jeaneauus, etc newer will mean less replacement , less unexpected costs. All will sail you to where you want to go. ( see boatmans comment) consider some used scandavian designs , but be careful about real price versus supposed quality.

Don't go chasing " built like a tank" chimeras , its almost always wrong. Don't overlook mass designs , I mean 10 million Toyota corollas can't be wrong , you need good speed capability , good dynamic sea keeping , ie good rudder control, ability to hand,e sail changes easily, modern system, and certain creature comforts ) , you will find a huge set of boats will handle the rough stuff and your likely to hit the " red button" long before the Benny or whatever gives up.

For me I'd prefer a Bene 44CC then a 35 ' anything anyday. Quality is not axiomatic in certain " older boats " , and when you can't find space to store the chopped tomatoes , its all irrelevant.

Ps double Enders are a total pita and totally out designed by recent computer aided design

Don't limit your choice unless you'd actively sailed them. What you think they are isn't always what you get.

Ps for 40k transport cost , you could live on your boat in the Med for two years ! , don't waste dead money transporting things

Dave

[JazzyO]

I think, dear OP, that Dave's post above shows that you need to make your own decisions about what kind of boat you want. It's funny that someone accuses someone of being biased and then talks about "tank chimaera's" as if that doesn't show he's biased.... But he certainly makes valid points.

I lean more towards Patient's ideas than Dave's, and frankly I was disappointed with the recent production boats I stepped aboard of when I was looking to buy my boat. The quality of finishing and particularly the sailing philosophy of my 29YO Baltic was infinitely more appealing than a new Dehler, Jeanneau or anything else up to the $250k mark (and I saw practically all the manufacturers). On the other hand, I have to content with a less airy cabin, a rig that is less suitable for modern shorthand sails such as Code 0's, no folding transom, less stability directly downwind (but better beating upwind), and not forgetting upgrading a lot of old equipment.

The analogy to cars might make it more clear. Some people need a brand new SUV and enjoy the iPod interfaces and what not. Others want an old Land Rover for their farm. Yet others customise a Honda with a $30k stereo.

Personally, I went for a classic manual sportscar rather than cupholders, 4WD and automatic. Both have their appeal and application.

So it all comes down to you and what you want to do with the boat.

Two makes you might want to include in your search are Arcona and Najad, nice quality boats from what I can gather.


Onno

[zeehag]

shop for what turns you on...forget the spreadsheets and this and that-if you are not happy with her looks, you will ditch her...keep searching until something grabs your heart and buy that, as she will be closer to you than your wife/gf/mistress......


unless you found your wife/gf/mistress by using spread sheets and statistics.....



as for toys and acoutrements, you can always add em later at less expense than initial purchase of wrong to you boat......



ps---what others have to think or say about it is not actually important. it is YOUR choice and decision....funny thing about that....

love what you get by getting what you love.....

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by zeehag

unless you found your wife/gf/mistress by using spread sheets and statistics.....

I know someone like that...

Originally Posted by zeehag

love what you get by getting what you love.....

Love that statement, certainly applies to my boat.


Onno