Bluewater Boat

[capnorv]

So capn billl, have you figured out how to exercise salvage rights on the asphalt ocean? Just a thought.

[Brent Swain]

Collisions with floating containers often holes fibreglass boats. I've never heard of that happening with a good steel hull. I've hit a steel barge at hull speed, with zero damage as have several steel boats I've built. One pounded in 8 to 12 foot surf on the west coast of Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru similar surf , being lifted and dropped every wave for 1/4 mile with out damage. Another pounded across 30 yards of Fijian Coral reef leaving Suva and was pulled of by a tug, without any serious damage . A fibreglass hull would have broken up in minutes in those conditions. That's what breaks.
One client , after having sailed a Spencer 35 from BC to New Zealand and back , said "If this boat were steel, and a foot wider , it would be perfect. So he sold her and I built him one of my 36 footers. On a passage to Mexico , Hawaii and back to BC, he said . Boy, what a difference in peace of mind, sailing hull speed on a dark moonless night, having a steel hull between you and whatever is floating out there."
The Sleavin family would probably all still be alive, had their boat been steel. How many others?
The boat is now on her way to the Straits of Magellan and and South Georgia.
On my 26 year old 31 ft steel sloop my maintenance amounts to about an hour or two a year, and about $25 a year. Trimming all outside corners with stainless, drastically reduces maintenance on a steel hull, as that is where the paint chips most. I gave her 30 gallons of epoxy tar 26 years ago, and it is as good as the day I put it on. The only maintenance is where it has chipped.

[goboatingnow]

Collisions with floating containers often holes fibreglass boats. I've never heard of that happening with a good steel hull.

The container story is a myth, so few have actually occurred. please show me first hand evidence, theres so few steel boats around and even less crossing the oceans that the odds are tiny.. Its just hot air.

There are many cases of fibreglass boats surviving reefs etc.

no more doubts that in most cases steel boats are stronger, particulary those properly built. But in most cases GRP is more the adaquate.

Dave

[Brent Swain]

Most European boats cruising offshore are metal. Metal boats make up a large percentage of the offshore fleet. GRP is adequate , as long as you are prepared to accept the risks , and are willing to expose your crew or family to them. It is nowhere near as forgiving.
Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" has a lot to say about what experienced circumnavigators would choose for their next boats . They overwhelmingly prefer metal.

[Hannah on 'Rita T']

Methinks, Msr. Swain is selling a product; only puffery could justify speculating the Sleavin family would still be alive.

[David_Old_Jersey]

If steel boats are always surviving hitting things, might want to check the Compass installation / deviation.

Just sayin'

[Brent Swain]

Check out that photo of the steel cruiser "Gringo," after having been T-boned by a freighter, without leaking a drop.
Moitessier posted a similar photo of a sistership of his Joshua, which had a similar experience, without leaking a drop. That was posted in a fall 1984 issue of Yachting magazine.
The Sleavins boat sunk in minutes.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Collisions with floating containers often holes fibreglass boats. I've never heard of that happening with a good steel hull. I've hit a steel barge at hull speed, with zero damage as have several steel boats I've built. One pounded in 8 to 12 foot surf on the west coast of Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru similar surf , being lifted and dropped every wave for 1/4 mile with out damage. Another pounded across 30 yards of Fijian Coral reef leaving Suva and was pulled of by a tug, without any serious damage . A fibreglass hull would have broken up in minutes in those conditions. That's what breaks.

G'Day Brent,

I guess that it is correct to say that collision with floating containers {when and if it happens} does often hole a FG boat. The real question in this whole argument is whether one should predicate the design and construction of one's cruising yacht on surviving such an incident, or the sitting on a reef for a month incident or the getting run down by a ship incident.

Risk assessment must be an issue in the thinking that goes into the design and building of your yacht, your motor car, your house and so on. Each of us has our own criteria for these things... we don't all buy Hummers so that we can plow through the Hondas et al in a big pile up on the freeway, but some do. Everyone has their own ideas about what are acceptable risks. For me, to build in steel just so I have a somewhat better (but not guaranteed) chance of surviving a very low probability incident doesn't work out.

The post to which I replied seemed to imply that LOTS of stuff on FG boats broke in normal usage, while on steel boats it didn't. Still can't buy that one!

Now, as to the maintenance issue, you must have the magic touch in preventive treatment for steel. We have lots of friends and acquaintances in the long term cruising fleet with steel yachts, and none of them would make such claims! Yes, use of s/s in wear points surely helps, and proper treatment when building does too, but for all of our real world pals the idea of 1 or 2 hours per YEAR total maintenance on their steel yachts is an impossible dream. I find it pretty hard to believe myself...
snip>
Most European boats cruising offshore are metal. Metal boats make up a large percentage of the offshore fleet.
unsnip>

I reckon that Mr Beneteau et al would be very surprised to hear that, Brent!
We are an active part of the offshore fleet you mention, and while there are certainly steel yachts here with us, "large Percentage" seems exaggerated to this observer. We know personally quite a few circumnavigators. Some of them did so in metal boats, but a lot more were in pretty ordinary FG boats. Some were even timber!

I guess my point here is, as stated before, that to advise newbies that sailing in non-steel boats is risky and will incur greater maintenance issues is misleading. Once they are no longer newbies, they will have accrued enough knowledge to make up their own minds.

And finally, once again I'll say that I have nothing against metal boats. If I was planning high latitude voyaging I might well go that way myself, but for the sort of mid latitude stuff that most cruisers do (circumnavigators or not), glass boats seem completely adequate.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Church Point, NSW, Oz

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Most European boats cruising offshore are metal. Metal boats make up a large percentage of the offshore fleet. GRP is adequate , as long as you are prepared to accept the risks , and are willing to expose your crew or family to them. It is nowhere near as forgiving.
Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising" has a lot to say about what experienced circumnavigators would choose for their next boats . They overwhelmingly prefer metal.

Brent are you pushing a product or something. That's a grand sweeping statement and simply completely false. Sit in las palmas and watch those heading out across one of the biggest stretches of water on the planet. Most like way most are GRP ( ands that's not just ARC boats either) steel is a particular rarity more are seen in in aluminium but still the numbers Are tiny , but hey why let reality spoil an argument

Dave

[Brent Swain]

Where I have been cruising , Mexico , South Pacific and BC , steel boats are very common, anything but rare. In BC we have a lot of big logs floating around , which will sink or seriously damage a plastic boat. In steel boats, we just throw the engine into neutral when we hear them slam into the bow, wait for them to clear the stern then carry on, without a care in the world. In winter, I do most of my traveling at night , something which gives local plastic boat owners nightmares.
Total loss of non metal boats, when grounded in rough conditions, are far more common than with metal boats. I have sen Beneteaus crossing oceans, but rarely. Most are coastal cruisers or charter boats.
If you have a lot of maintenance on a steel boat , you are doing something wrong. This is usualy too thin a paint job, paint on steel which was not properly prepared, or the sublime foolishness of bolting wood on the outside of a steel boat.

I'm just stating the facts.

[hoppy]

Interestingly this is what I found on the ARC world cruise site

Most World ARC yachts are a mix of production cruisers such as Beneteau, Bavaria and Jeanneau, classic cruisers including Amel, Hallberg Rassy and Oysters. The most 'popular' World ARC boats of the last two editions are the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 49, Amel Super Maramu and the Privilege 445. World ARC proves that with some preparation and planning, a standard cruising yacht is perfectly capable of making a successful circumnavigation.

Sounds like bulk of the tin cans doing this trip contain fruits and other foods and are in the hold of the yachts.

[bob perry]

You guys need a dose of reality here.

Some of you guys do not have clue.
GRP can be very strong. I'ts just a matter of how much GRP you have.
Kind of like how thick your steel or alu plating is.
Stop generallizing.

I have over 6,000 boats to my design on the water, mostly grp, I have never heard of one being holed by a floating container. Georfe day, editor of BLUE WATER SAILING says there are more Tayana 37's world cruising than any other boat. Thanks George.

Time to put the magazines down and go sailing.

Go ahead and attack me but be sure to provide reliable and solid documention.

I live in the Land of Logs. Big logs. I have a front yard full of them.
I worked my ass off today on three new design projects.

I'm ready for a good fight.
Or, maybe a good hockey game on TV.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by bob perry

GRP can be very strong. I'ts just a matter of how much GRP you have.

....not to mention the fact that many modern GRP boats have kevlar-reinforced bows backed up by collision bulkheads.

and the nice thing about kevlar is it never rusts.

[silverp40]

Steel boats also sink when loosing their anchors and getting washed ashore. Here is one example:

Tansania Wolfgang Clemens.

Also, remember Moitessier's Joshua in the Baja a few years ago? Very similar fate unfortunately...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by bob perry

You guys need a dose of reality here.

Some of you guys do not have clue.
GRP can be very strong. I'ts just a matter of how much GRP you have.
Kind of like how thick your steel or alu plating is.
Stop generallizing.

I have over 6,000 boats to my design on the water, mostly grp, I have never heard of one being holed by a floating container.

Bob, thanks for adding a note of realism to this discussion.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Careel Bay, NSW, Oz