Boat buying etiquette

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think it was perfectly good to make your offer per email since the broker didn’t really ask for anything else.

Whether 30% below is offending, it all depends on the seller, the boat, the asking price and his/her ”motivation to sell”. I’ve been offered that and it wasn’t offending at all. When the prospective buyer over the phone tried to bully me into selling it — that was a bit offending 😊

Being honest is great.

Call the broker and confirm that he/she received the email. You may be able to get some feedback on your offer/possible selling price at the same time.

Cheers,

Yes, do this, and do remember, anything you tell the broker is as if you're telling it directly to the seller, because they're likely to.

[Pelagic]

So to the OP, from all these diverse opinions the only answer you can come to is that there are no ethics when buying or selling a boat

Boatie gave the best advise which is to pay only what the boat is worth to you ....or walk away.

Inflated asking price or low ball offer is simply in the eye of the beholder

[DockDoc]

I sent an offer to my broker last night, paperwork for electronic signature arrived an hour later. Signed and sent this morning. Awaiting sellers response.
I started a long thread on this topic "No room for negotiation?".
I learned a lot from CF!! Some responders were semi jerks in the forums, but later in PMs very nice, helpful, and polite. Sellers are people and have frustrations too ya know!

It boils down to
1. What can you afford? I think it's not unreasonable to look at boats 25% above your budget. But looking at boats more than 50-75% of max budget seems a waste of time. I am looking ay 2015-2019 cats 39-45 foot, most in my budget. I catch my wife last night looking at 2 million dollar+ Sunreef 62s What does she know I don't?

2. What kind of seller? USA and Carribean boats are listed with some haggle room. Europeans are not. As with any blanket statement, expect it to be wrong exactly when you really need it to be right. Even so, European sellers feel the pressure of a boat sitting at a dock, degrading by weather and elements, siphoning off their income gathering barnacles. Some American sellers value their boats more than their livers. I looked at a boat, super nice custom lifting keel (years before it was a family mandate we get a catamaran), the 83 year old gentleman had never even had it commissioned, had no offers on it for 2 years, and was very frank about the fact he would never sail her, nor lower the price. It's been 5 years, I check on it occasionally, still listed, the same price.

3. What kind of boat? Less popular, older boats in more remote anchorages should sell for less. Blanket statement again.

4. A lot of low balls are swung at, some strike out, some may walk, some are home runs. Doesn't cost you anything to throw them.


5. A good broker works for you, if they are not acting like it get another broker.

And the old adage "Opinions are like A-h*les everyone has one and they all stink" which I do like to add "But if you never open up and express them you're gonna get backed up with a ton of Sh!*"

Good luck, I let you know if my offer gets accepted...this time...finally

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by Manana5

We ended up offering about 30% less than the asking price

I think if you are offering 15% less than the asking price or even less than that, either you or a seller is out of touch with reality and nothing will come out of it.

Few months ago someone posted here a table of actual closing prices vs asking prices with statistically significant data, and as far as I remember in most cases the difference was between 5 and 10 percent. The longer the boat was being sold, the higher the differece.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

I think if you are offering 15% less than the asking price or even less than that, either you or a seller is out of touch with reality and nothing will come out of it.

Few months ago someone posted here a table of actual closing prices vs asking prices with statistically significant data, and as far as I remember in most cases the difference was between 5 and 10 percent. The longer the boat was being sold, the higher the differece.

That 5 to 10% would have been from current or last asking price, not necessarily the original listing price. Many boats get listed high and have multiple, periodic price drops till sold.

[billdomb]

Originally Posted by Manana5

Hello again, this forum has been greatly helpful and I have learned a whole lot, leading up to my first ever boat purchase ...

Consider offering CASH. Better yet, gold in smaller denominations.

Can make a BIG difference in having a counter-offer accepted.

[parkstone bay]

First, if a broker is involved, he is under pressure to maximise the price for his client, the seller, and therefore his commission. But, he is also bound, legally, (certainly in most western countries) to pass ANY offer to his client. Whether or not the client accepts is his call.
I offer 2 personal examples. My father looked at a boat which he rather liked; on the survey, an area of osmosis was discovered. He and the seller agreed to deduct the cheapest quote the seller obtained to fix the problem from the ask price, whether or not the Old Man went with that bidder. Result: happy seller, happy buyer. (And happy broker!). I looked at a boat which I rather liked, but was really beyond my price bracket. I made an offer of around 66% of his ask price. The seller said he'd check with SWMBO; apparently she said "They'll love the boat and get lots out of it - plus it's an offer! Take it" Result: happy seller, happy buyer. But the cash deposit (need not be loads, in my case the deposit was £250.00) probably helped.

[aboatman]

As a licensed & bonded Yacht broker in California, I use a standardised form for offers that include a vessel description, official numbers of the vessel, amount of the offer, amount of the refundable deposit, times to perform (accept,or counter) and subject to's. And I submit all written offersto the seller that are accompanied with a refundable deposit. I then offer a most realistic professional opinion to both the buyer and seller, then "get out of the way" as much as possible. My concern is to sell the boat not to be concerned over the difference in the commission at different prices. I have been amazed at some outcomes where the seller accepted offers that I would have considered "insulting" but they had other reasons for doing so.
Yes, I do email the purchase agreement and accept electronic signatures and have alternative methods to accepting a "refundable deposit". If a buyer won't put up some form of deposit, and provide their information they are "fishing" and are not committed to purchase.
I don't accept emails without identifying info or "would ja' takes...? from folks.
I tell my buyers their offer is too low because the seller is too high. It's my job to make everyone "see reason" and put the "deal" together.

[rgsims]

The boat I own now I called the broker and made a verbal offer of 30% below the asking. The seller accepted the offer. I then contacted a surveyor to do a quick walk-through. He told me the boat was worth buying a plane ticket and going to look at it. When I arrived at the boat and took a look at it I made a formal offer then we did a survey.

I think the thing to remember is there is a lot of boats out there.the seller has the right to take or leave the offer the buyer has the right to make the offer that they want to make.

And everyone should try to not get their feelings hurt.

[Elzaar]

I imagine this deal has already resolved one way or the other, but because I asked a similar question a few years ago ...

Firstly, I would guess the person most able to answer your question on how the deal is transacted is the broker selling the boat. If they took your offer in a particular format it was because that was acceptable to them. Having said that I would always include how long the offer is good in whatever form it took.

Second, if it is acceptable to use a Buyer's Broker, do it. A buyer's broker can answer your questions and give you the local advise so you arent out there trying to negotiate as a new guy against people who do this for a living. Usually the Buyers Broker is paid out of the commission, so it is effectively free to you.

Third, everything is negotiable and everything is currency. And everything varies in every deal. Even your Buyer Broker may disagree, but it is reality. People are emotional creatures and boats like these are emotional objects. As Captain Jack Sparrow reminds us, Boats are not sails and a keel, Boats are Dreams. Otherwise no one with the wits to make the money to buy one would EVER buy one. I see no problem with you including you love the boat, but can't afford it. The Owner may care or not, but it does help salve the potential offense they may take at a low offer.

Two examples from my life in past three years:

My boat was originally listed by the seller for about $80k. I researched what other boats of that make and model were listed for, how long they had been kn the market, and what the ones that had sold actually sold for. I also looked at the overall market. I offered $65k. The broker warned this might be seen as a lowball and I explained my reasoning. He submitted the offer and they came back with a counter, but after ten days or so we were still higher than the boat was worth to me and lower than it was worth to them. It was late September so I said I would look at the boat again in the Spring assuming it was still unsold. I liked the boat a lot, but it wasn't my boat. In the Spring I offered 58k on the boat that was now listed at about $75k. I bought it for $62k.

I wasn't trying to rip anyone off at my price and they weren't trying to rip anyone off at their price. A boat is worth EXACTLY what you are willing to pay for it and what the seller is willing to part with it for. When a broker once tried to tell me what a boat was WORTH I laughed and found a new broker. If a boat was WORTH more than asking the Broker would be a fool not to buy it and turn around and sell it for profit. A boat (nearly) never appreciates. It is WORTH less tomorrow than it is today. That is the non-emotional reality of a boat deal and boat ownership IMHO and ignores the unrecoverable boat bucks you may find out later today you have to spend tomorrow.

Having said that, there are lots of emotions to the deal. There is no point offending anyone. A boat (hopefully) represents dreams and memories to the seller. The more you can honestly equate your situation to blending with their dreams and honoring their memories, the more likely you are to have them WANTING you to own the boat. I am not saying to lie, I am saying humanize and relate. Now, before I get hammered - that is a sliding scale just like price. If the seller is someone who can see the transaction completely unemotionally they will appraise your offer in that manner - but even then your explanation for a low offer at least keeps good relations going and may lead to a counter offer.

My second recent sale was my house. I was blessed to sell in a housing market where bidding wars were common and sales prices were often higher than listing prices. Every realtor I know told their clients to write a personal letter explaining why the house was important to them to include with the money offer. The realtors were making sales generally well north of $500,000 where Sellers were often opening all offers on the Tuesday after the house listed on the previous Friday. The realtors understood that emotions would potentially play a big role in who would get the house - especially between otherwise similar offers. I sold my house to a successful younger couple who said they loved old houses and wanted to raise their children that way and they loved my chickens and asked if they could come with the house - I had spent 15 years fixing up a 1928 farm house in Seattle. They got the house for less than I had set as my bottom line in a rising housing market. I didnt need to sell right then, but I felt they would use the house as the home I had intended and that had emotional value to me that translated to $$$. My dream had turned to fulfilling my sailing dream. Another friend was offered $100,000 over asking because it was the only way they would sell to a group who planned to level the house and build condos. They had raised their kids in that house and the price for demolishing the house with those memories was $100k.

A few months after buying my boat I got a nice note from the Sellers telling me they were so happy I bought the boat because they could tell I was taking great care of her and pursuing my dreams just as they had with her.

Now I dont mean any of that to say take advantage of people, con people, who won in negotiations, etc. It is just to say recognize what a boat deal (or any personal property deal) really is. I dont blame buyers for what they offer or Sellers for what they ask. I have been both and I will (hopefully) continue to be both.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

[Swammy]

From the buyers perspective, other than a buyers broker, are there any fairly reasonably reliable sources of listed vs. sold price by make and model and when that is accessible to the non-professional buyer? Is there a service you can pay a reasonable fee to see what is similar in the US to the MLS data?

[Elzaar]

This was pretty good a few years ago ... small fee required (I am not associated with it).

Boat Values, Prices, Evaluations, Used Boat Price Guides - BUCValu

NADA seems a bit less accurate.

[Happ]

In purchasing a boat this is the order of events.

If you are the buyer always use a broker working for you. Never work directly withe Seller’s broker.

One you e decided on a boat you want make an offer that reflects the true value of the boat. If sisterships are selling for $100k your broker can give you an idea of the condition of the boat relative to the ones sold. Then calculate what it would take to get the boat to that condition. Then deduct a bit more. This is for 2 reasons. First it allows you to come up as in most cases you will get a counter. The second is if you get it at your price then you have some room to offset any unexpected issues in the survey. Make sure the offer has a good till date. Usually 48 hours. You don’t want to leave your offer out there. If you do the selling broker. Will contact everyone that has show interest in the boat to offer more. Your offer should include survey both in and out of the water. I always like to have a mechanical survey as well especially if it has things like a generator, A/C. Finally a Sea Trial.

At anytime you can stop the process and for any reason. I had an accepted offer on a Bene 362 and while organizing the surveys I found the Seller had verbally accepted the offer. I pulled out. The Seller ended up selling the boat 6 mo later for $8k less!

If anthing negative comes up unexpectedly in the surveys or sea trial you can always present this to the seller For an adjustment in the price or the seller can choose to fix it. On one boat I purchased the heat exchanger had a small drip in it. The Seller said they would fix it by welding a patch. I researched the cost of a new one and determined a new one was better for me and at a nominal additional cost.

There is nothing worse than buying a boat you love and realizing you just bought someone’s problem.

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by Manana5

Some further clarification - we are not buying an Oyster It's an older, smaller and cheaper boat.

We've been pondering this very thing lately- there are so many older fiberglass boats out there, they seem to be accumulating at a rapid rate - I have to wonder what the impact will be to resale value. We even met one guy in Tahiti who was giving away a Westsail 32 in tip top shape for $1 since he was done cruising and could not find a buyer. If it's a production boat, Google the model length & year that you've put in an offer on, you may find others for sale, who knows you may even find a fore sale by owner one on e-Bay! I can't emphasize enough that there are lots of good boats out there, this is not the only one.

PS: Hire your own surveyor, not one recommended by the seller's broker.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Happ

If you are the buyer always use a broker working for you. Never work directly withe Seller’s broker.

Why?

While I can understand the desire to have "your guy" in order to match "their guy", but all brokers involved are essentially working towards making a sale happen.

If you've done your homework and know what those boats are selling for, what is the buyer broker doing for you?

I'm genuinely curious about this.