Boat Size !

[loneshark64]

This is good advice. I have a 35’ Beneteau coastal cruiser. The costs are a function of boat condition, how much you can do yourself, and what you think you need.

Boats much bigger that that are hard for me to sail myself or with my wife and it is more than enough space. I can go anywhere I want in it but I don’t want to cross an ocean.

I have been out in 8’ seas with some 10’ mixed in and the boat handled it but it was scary. If I was to cross an ocean I would want a 45’ boat and crew. If I had to do it in 35’ boat I would want higher displacement-to-length and ballast-to-displacement than what I have which likely means a different keel configuration.

Then, assuming is is properly fitted out for a crossing and all other things being equal, my only real concern at 35’ would be the risk of taking an unexpected 10’+ breaking wave on the beam.

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Paul,

you should seriously consider getting rid of the blue-water requirement and replace it with something more specific. Do you mean you want to

• Make it from Florida into the Carribean? No blue-water needed
• Make it down the US coast? No blue-water needed
• Sail around in the PNW? No blue-water needed
• Sail around the Mediterranean? No blue-water needed
• Sail along the European Atlantic coast? No blue water needed
• Get stuck in the Baltic Sea? No blue water needed
• Make it once across the Atlantic and back? A blue water boat would be nice, but about any 34'+ can do it with proper preparation. With a 30' it'll be tougher
• Sail around Patagonia? A solid boat for this is probably beyond your budget.

Usually people looking for blue-water boats under this moniker have no clear understanding either where they want to go or what they need. In most cases it's just a tag for "I want a good boat".

[hpeer]

Sean has an outliers opinion but it is one based in a lot of experience.

That there are differences of opinion is a reflection of the difference in experience, expectations, and tolerance to various experiences.

We have 2 boats; 44’ LOD/40,000# and 33’LOD/16,000#. My Wife prefers the smaller, I the bigger. It is sometimes the difference between blond and brunette. Personal choice.

[loneshark64]

Originally Posted by hpeer

We have 2 boats; 44’ LOD/40,000# and 33’LOD/16,000#. My Wife prefers the smaller, I the bigger. It is sometimes the difference between blond and brunette. Personal choice.

When deciding between blonde and brunette, ballast-to-displacement is a useful metric.

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by loneshark64

When deciding between blonde and brunette, ballast-to-displacement is a useful metric.

Weight carried aloft can be important too.........................

[danstanford]

....as will mast stiffness.

[mako]

Originally Posted by wgerstmyer

... If you want blue water there are going to be times when your passage will be far rougher than you expected from what the weather window predicted... A larger boat can handle more of the build-up than a smaller one making the rougher hours a smaller percentage of your passage, ie, something more manageable... The 28’ boats I’ve been on start feeling miserable at 3’ seas and 20 knots whereas on the 36 those are just normal sailing days.

Above statement is right. There was a comment earlier that smaller boats are safer and more comfortable. That may be one person's opinion but personally I think it's silly.

My 22ft in seas of 3+ feet is not fun. My previous 65ft in 6ft seas wouldn't even rock a glass of wine. These are two extremes in size, but you can't fight the laws of physics (mass, momentum, accelerations, etc.)

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Lady Captin

Hi , this is Lady Captains first mate , lol .

I have a question, and I realize that it is not an easy answer! I know there are a tons of variables in the question! I am not looking for a definitive answer per say!
More just some positive feedback, to think about !

We are looking to purchase our first blue water sail boat in the next couple of years and we are really torn between the size of boat ! We have done a good deal of research and know bigger boats means greater cost !

However we are wondering just how much the cost Is affected between say a 30 foot boat and a 36 foot boat , regarding maintenance and running cost . As we all know Lin and Larry Pardy , did the world on a very small boat , so it’s do able ! However for those that have upsized maybe 5-6 feet how have you found it cost wise .

Given a greater purchase price as a given , looking for some positive, dare I say kind thoughtful insight from those who have tackled the same issue in their own minds !

I am not looking to compare specific boats ,as that is can of worms , lol . More just some experience with going bigger , or perhaps even smaller and lessons learned.


Ps , just to be clear 36 foot would be at the top of our budget and consideration, this is a personal decision, based on personal financial and research considerations, thank you !
Thank you Paul

I tried to make it through the whole thread but I could've missed this part of the equation. Has Little Wing checked in yet? She'll probably tell you that the biggest consideration is not the size of the boat, it's how much sail you can handle with a shorthanded crew.

According to your profile, you're learning to sail on a Tanzer 22 (Great boat by the way!!).

You ought to try, if you haven't already, handling a 30-foot and a 36-foot boat. There are much bigger forces in play.

Just one example: Your boat's mainsail is 103.50 ft2; try raising the 210.00 ft2 sail on a Baba 30 (often referred to in marketing brochures and reviews as a "bluewater" boat), or the 351.08 ft2 sail on the Tayana 37 in your sweet zone. That latter number is my limit for solo sailing; once I'm on a Hanse 415 (mainsail is a ginormous 484.61 ft2) I want at least one other qualified sailor as well at least one more set of hands on board. That's just me.

Even if you do install electric winches, you need to be able to control your sails without them before you head out to "blue water" (or even a mile offshore or 500 feet from the dock) cuz stuff breaks. And that's just one example.

In my opinion. YMMV.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by mako

Above statement is right. There was a comment earlier that smaller boats are safer and more comfortable. That may be one person's opinion but personally I think it's silly.



My 22ft in seas of 3+ feet is not fun. My previous 65ft in 6ft seas wouldn't even rock a glass of wine. These are two extremes in size, but you can't fight the laws of physics (mass, momentum, accelerations, etc.)

You may have been referring to me. I repeated L&LPardey’s observation from Cabo 1982 that boats over 37’ in survival conditions a couple was less likely to cope.

Let’s look at the extremes.
Is a 15’ boat safer than a 30’ boat offshore? Depending on the boats and the couple almost certainly not.
Is a 100’ boat with a couple aboard safer than a 30’ offshore? Depending on the boats and the couple almost certainly not.

Depending on the boats and crew the peak of safety is somewhere in between 15’ and 100’.


4’ seas in a 22’ boat may not be fun, but safety is more important than comfort. I can think of 20’ boats I’d rather be offshore in that 65’ boats (Flicka 20 vs MacGregor 65.1).

[ashmun]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Paul,

you should seriously consider getting rid of the blue-water requirement and replace it with something more specific. Do you mean you want to

• Make it from Florida into the Carribean? No blue-water needed
• Make it down the US coast? No blue-water needed
• Sail around in the PNW? No blue-water needed
• Sail around the Mediterranean? No blue-water needed
• Sail along the European Atlantic coast? No blue water needed
• Get stuck in the Baltic Sea? No blue water needed
• Make it once across the Atlantic and back? A blue water boat would be nice, but about any 34'+ can do it with proper preparation. With a 30' it'll be tougher
• Sail around Patagonia? A solid boat for this is probably beyond your budget.

Usually people looking for blue-water boats under this moniker have no clear understanding either where they want to go or what they need. In most cases it's just a tag for "I want a good boat".

Lots of good feed back and comments but this one is the top of my list. The material of the boat (fiberglass, metal), hull shape, keel depth and shape, rudder style, boat’s sea worthiness, mast height, tankage, equipment, energy (solar vs wind), and other factors best determined by where you are sailing, the type of sailing (fast, comfortable, minimalist, seasonal or year-round, etc.), how much work you are doing (vs paying a yard), your budget, and both your requirements/wish lists. The last item, as someone sagely pointed out, includes having space from each other for work, hobby, quiet time, etc..

We’ve had friends who spent money plus months/years setting up their dream boat, only to find it was too small (AKA needing to sell, buy another, and do it all over again). And sometimes, the purchase of a used bigger boats is less expensive than boats under 40’ (due to demand and maint. costs) but then the maintenance, storage, and docking is higher (as covered in other posts).

I highly recommend you both independently write a list of all the items you want (or don’t want) in a boat by priority, where you want sail to and what style of sailing you want to do. For example, separate shower, keel stepped mast, hung rudder, comfort ratio, up-right ability ratio, center cockpit vs aft cockpit, will you often have guests onboard, separate sleeping cabin(s), cabin layout, head room, bed size/layout, galley layout, deck layout, sail configurations (sloop, ketch, cutter, etc.), and more. Practical Sailer has a two volume listing and reviews of boats as do several other publishers that are well worth looking at to get a feel of the different boat/hull designs, cabin layouts, etc..

For us (not retired, need work space, especially when one is sleeping), we chose a heavier 39’ center-cockpit, sloop built in the 80’s (solid glass, no core) with 2 sleeping cabins, 2 heads, U-shaped galley, nav station. My previous boats were aft cockpit but I was willing to accept the performance trade-offs to have a separate aft cabin and head. Normally I would have purchased a ketch to have smaller sails, more sail config options, and shorter masts or a cutter but the simplicity of the sloops has worked for us. Final boat selections often include trade-offs between items you might have wanted.

[Mara Mae]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

But not smaller.

Yes possible is the operative word.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by rotrax

Weight carried aloft can be important too.........................

Originally Posted by danstanford

....as will mast stiffness.

I believe the later is contingent on the former...

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by wgerstmyer

Seandepagnier has a vastly different experience about safety than others here like me. If you want blue water there are going to be times when

Safety is different from comfort. For safety it just means you survive.

The 28’ boats I’ve been on start feeling miserable at 3’ seas and 20 knots whereas on the 36 those are just normal sailing days.

It is more to do with steepness of waves. I have been in 15-20 ft seas perfectly comfortable, because the period was long. It was crazy to be beating at hull speed on 3rd reef and 40% jib and keeping the deck dry on 27' boat. I never really considered 3' sea and 20 knots "miserable" even sailing in 30 knots and much larger sea in comfort.

There is a period of wave that is the worst for a particular boat. Then when the waves get larger it can get more comfortable again but depends on the overall sea state. This happens sooner on the small boat which can enjoy the comfort in large waves more of the time.

I have been on a catamaran in beam to sea where one hull is on top of a wave and the other in a trough, and in 3ft seas it was alarming how bad the motion was compared to a monohull in the same conditions.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Safety is different from comfort. For safety it just means you survive.


It is more to do with steepness of waves. I have been in 15-20 ft seas perfectly comfortable, because the period was long. It was crazy to be beating at hull speed on 3rd reef and 40% jib and keeping the deck dry on 27' boat. I never really considered 3' sea and 20 knots "miserable" even sailing in 30 knots and much larger sea in comfort.

There is a period of wave that is the worst for a particular boat. Then when the waves get larger it can get more comfortable again but depends on the overall sea state. This happens sooner on the small boat which can enjoy the comfort in large waves more of the time.

I have been on a catamaran in beam to sea where one hull is on top of a wave and the other in a trough, and in 3ft seas it was alarming how bad the motion was compared to a monohull in the same conditions.

Yeah I'd agree with that. It's not uncommon for me to be out in waves 3' and greater and wind over 20 kts and I don't recall ever feeling miserable. And then there is whether you are running, reaching or heading upwind of course. You have to talk about steepness and period of the waves (which probably is a function of local currents vs. wind and depth of the water, and will affect all boats.)