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Amaleo · 28-01-2019, 19:44

I have sailed in Santa Monica Bay some and cannot remember anyplace in it that anyone can run aground on, unless "in it" includes the beaches or the rock reefs off the points as far up as Pt. Dume or down to Palos Verdes. It is said that the edges of the ocean are more hazardous than the sea itself. A big swell, a lee shore, an inadequate anchor, etc. could contribute to running aground, but then some folks have gotten too close to the rock jetties at MDR so that could be considered running aground in the bay. Just to comment about the cause. If the repairs were well done and survey is good, as well as your inspection of where water may have gotten into unsealed-by-epoxy plywood bulkheads, you may have a good boat at a good price.

tommyboy-afloat · 28-01-2019, 22:28

PLEASE READ THIS SHANE IT MAY HELP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by paula_k

The boat should have been priced accordingly, the broker or owner should have been up front about it. If it wasn't in the advertising up front then why not? You did not get off on good footing. They have set the hook and reeling you in. Walk away.

[

QUOTE=regex;2807732]Hello there folks.

So, the Mrs and I have an agreed purchase price of a 2009 Beneteau Oceanis 40 in Marina Del Rey. In our due diligence, we found that in 2016 the boat was swamped due to a run aground in Santa Monica Bay. I don't have the full details yet, but I went to "The Boat Yard" in MDR today with my agent and we got permission to look at the entire invoice by the selling party. I spoke with one of the heads of the MDR boatyard and he, of course, stands by his work and I hear very, very good things about the workmanship of this yard so that is a good starting point.

Needless to say, my first response in learning this info was "Oh, F****. This could be a showstopper"

Details as I know them:

Event happened in October of 2016
Boat took on water (swamped) and was emergency towed back to MDR boat yard
I was told the run aground happened rudder first (aft end)
Removed the mast
Removed the prop, shaft, coupling, and seal
Replaced bearings and shaft seals
Cut out a delamination section next to keel joint and laid new fiberglass
Repaired rudder tube & rudder
Replaced nearly every electrical component on the entire boat
New wiring throughout, new refrigeration compressors, modules, & fans.
Replaced electrical panel, transom plates
New electrical panel & transom covers
Replaced inverter/charger, stereo, AIS system, and replaced all damaged electrical connections (all fuses, breakers, junction boxes, etc.)
All new raymarine rewiring for GPS/Plotter/Radar
Replaced all the batteries, batt charger, etc.
Fabricated 2 new customer mattresses
Replaced starter motor and alternator
Replaced water heater
Repaired steering system
New bottom paint (2 coats)
New spinnaker halyard
Replaced motor mounts & aligned engine
Repaired gel coat at the helm
New microwave
Serviced winches
Sand and applied sepmco coating at teak in cockpit

Ok, that's the gist. So clearly as our first major boat purchase we are already pretty sketchy about the whole thing. Now having learned that the boat was swamped at some point puts us even more on edge.

Current thoughts from the two of us:

Could be a blessing in disguise, she's a 10yr old boat but has had many components replaced only 3 years ago.
It was done 3 years ago if there were additional problems from the swamping they would have surfaced already (no additional work orders at the boatyard, I checked). One would hope anyway...
However, there could be "sleeper cell" kinds of issues that would show up later. Clearly, the motor was in salt water for a time and salt is horrible on everything but they only replaced the mounts and the starter/alternator? Concerning.
Lastly, and maybe worst of all - This ugly history is going to haunt her, her entire life. If we decide to sell her, in full disclosure I legally have to tell the buying party that this happened even though I had nothing to do with it and it might make her MUCH harder to sell.

The boat is beautiful, very well taken care of and certainly loved and yes, you can tell she "calls to us" so our heart wants to move forward but my stupid technical sailing head keeps getting in the way.

Status: We are currently prior to Survey, Sea Trial and Haul-out. If we move forward I fully intend to tell my mechanical surveyor that this happened and to get "clinical" during his evaluation and diagnosis.

All of this said we got what looks to be a good deal. I guess now we know why.

OK. So. What say you salty-sailors & cruisers? Would you walk? Would you pay for the survey/haul-out etc?

Has anyone bought a boat (or had a run aground event) that had this kind of issue and did the MDR boatyard work on it? Were you satisfied with the work?

This is foreign territory for us so any advice would be greatly welcomed.

Thanks everyone, much appreciated.

- Shane

[/QUOTE]

Hi Shane, great story great posts and many replies to think about.

I agree with most that everything can be fixed.

BOAT 1

We fell in love with a yacht in Europe, I researched for two years prior to finding this one.

Loving it before we bought it was a huge issue as we had a connection to it prior to doing business. We learn that every boat should be treated like your business. Work out the pros and cons of it.

We fell in love with a yacht that was littered with problems that were not listed but because I know of the idiosyncrasies of this yacht I knew what to look for. We were still in love with her.

I organised a surveyor. He gave it the all clear. I flew from Aus to France. Found problems but because I had a heartfelt connection to her I was 'looking through rose coloured glasses' at her and only seeing the great things and the love I had for her.

I then bought my family over and subsequantly then spent 3 months working on her (before I bought her) with the owner paying for things he said were fine but were actually faulty.

They had my deposit, and a very poorly written contract (not representative of my interests, only the sellers interests).

The yard was doing some work on here and she was out of the water so I had a great opportunity to make sure she was water tight.

I found more and more problems that were not picked up by the survey and that were not there (according to the owner) whilst working on the visible problems.

The yard workers became friends with me and started hinting to 'look for another yacht' or 'this yacht is to big for your family' or 'look at that yacht, it will be good for your family'

I blindly ignored them, blindly ignored other advice because I was in love with her and she was a bargain and the yacht for us.

All in all the yard decided to move the yacht a few inches to re position the stands holing her up out of the water. They placed her on a part of the keel that should not have had weight and a huge crack appeared at the hull/keel joint and subsequently I investigated further to find a potential catastrophic issue that if not rectified could have caused the yacht to have taken in water through the keel and potentially could have sunk us.

The yard tried to help me and advise me in very poor broken english to steer clear of this yacht. They also said that it could have been fixed properly with no future issue however the owner had directed them to cover it up.

They helped me out big time after that as the owner blamed them and took no responsibility for the fact that he had instructed them to hide this issue.

I had run out of time and had spent the whole summer working onthe yacht and had to vacate the EU for three months for visa reasons. We decided to not go ahead with the purchase of that yacht and eventually after many discussions and alot of pressure I was lucky to get my deposit back.

I needed up being 10-20k out of pocket after all of that but I didn't end up losing my family or having to potentially to spend up to 50-100k rectifying the issues. I had even re negotiated the prie with the owner reflecting the other issues prior to this huge one.

The emotional connection to the yacht definitely had a huge influence on me making the wrong decisions and not listening to reason from others.

It is a mistake that most people make in different circumstances throughout their life. Brokers love people who fall in love with the boat prior to buying it.

The money lost on this yacht armed me in ways I would not have expected for the next purchase. I wrote the losses off as a schooling experience that still plays to this day.

BOAT 2

A year and a half later I decided to try again. The family and I were back in Australia and I went to help deliver a yacht and decided to look for one for us to live on for a few years (our original plan was to sail back to Aus from Europe over 2 or so years).

I looked at about 15 yachts from Yepoon to Sydney. Out of all of them I was pushed towards a Jeanneau 52.2 which was way out of my price range but was a nice specimen.

I looked at others and found all sorts of problems and poor manufacture. The one I was steered to had issues as well both from the present owner and the yacht.

The owner blatantly lied about really simple non issue items which made me very aware of what came out of his mouth and when the broker repeated these things I decided not to listen to him either.

I decided that the yacht would tell me the best history of itself by being thorough and vigilant and to research.

I commissioned a surveyor, and found problems with the yacht that he did not see. I didn't mind as I am pretty thorough and new what to look for from the last yacht and thought as myself as a contributing set of eyes for the surveyor. I added to his list of pros and cons. Well worth doing and important.

I also had a friend who was a qualified yachtmaster to operate the yacht in the sea trials so I and the surveyor could walk around her and listen and look whilst she was being sailed and motored. My friend also put in his two cents worth and I had a form for him to fill out independent of the surveyor so as I could compare, this was invaluable.

I made them an offer and they rejected it.

Incidentally this offer was close to 70k lower than the asking price but it was the average of all of these yachts for sale around the world. Quite fair from my point of view but to others it was too generous. Whilst I was doing my preliminary inspections the generator stopped working and a few other things didn't work that were meant to.

I walked away with absolutely no connection to the yacht. It was perfect in so many ways but I had learnt the hard way prior and would not make the same mistakes this time.

A month later I had a call from my surveyor and he said someone else had made an offer and had a different surveyor and their offer was considerably lower than mine. He asked of I was still interested and I said possibly but I dont give a care about this yacht anymore.

The next day the broker called me and I ignored the call. He then sent me a 4 page essay of the present owners plans with the yacht if I didn't buy it within the week at the price I offered previously.

He rang a few more times throughout the week and left messaged telling me id miss out. On the Friday (day of the deadline) he rang yet again and asked if I had got his messages and said the deadline was today.

I asked him who's deadline was it? and that I don't care if the owner wants to withdraw it from the market and keep it.

I then said I was interested but not at my previous offer price.

I then wrote him a letter and offered him the same price if he fixed x,y and z and showed receipts for work carried out or if he didnt want to do that then I offer this price. The new price included knocking another 70k off the previous offer. I gave them a deadline of 4 days and said that I walk after that with no more recourse from anyone.

They accepted the offer and I walked away with a yacht that needed some work but was well worth it. Even if I had to fix a few big ticket items I would still be ahead.
We then fell in love with her and she became a great live aboard yacht that my wife, two kids and I had two glorious years living full time on.

4 years later we still own and love her and fix her and use her and have never looked back.

Getting onto your yacht;

If the plotter out in the cockpit was replaced it means the water was up to that point. Then on an angle it will probably have reached all the to the fwd berth. Were the fwd cushions replaced?

By way of replacing the wiring did every run get replaced from every appliance. Id say to re wire a boat the cost would have been very high. Not to mention the replacement of the appliances.

If what you say is correct that the switchboard was replaced then water would have definitely covered the engine. There are places where water can get into a motor if it is inundated. The salt will slowly kill over time.

Id ask for receipts and photos of the damage when the yacht was in situ(swamped or whatever word one wants to use).

Get a full report from the insurance company. The owner will have that and all details submitted to them.

If the owner hesitates then walk away. As you are parting with hard earned $ you should be completely aware of all issues rectified and of possible future issues.

Also that you have to do the due diligence and know everything.

Further investigation required;
Chain plates (inundated with water?) Be very wary.

Engine, pay the extra to have the engine oil tested. tell the person what happened and get an independent survey of the engine. Not by the person who looked at it when it was swamped and advised it was ok.
Look for small areas of corrosion in spots where you cant get to easily.

I have a telescopic mirror and a headlamp and my iphone can take photos in places Ill never ever be able to see with the naked eye.

Ask why the engine mounts were replaced, that is a strange one unless they were replace recently because they started to rust apart. If they have replaced them recently then that is a warning sign that other things could go bad.

Receipts; get a copy or originals of ALL receipts itemized for the work that was done compare it to what you were told.

Lining bards on walls and on ceilings;
These are foam backed and glued to the interior of the yacht. These can let go if they are not treated as expected in dry everyday use, If salt water has gotten into them how do you know? Whats happening behind them? Salt water dries to salt crystals the re hydrate when humidity is higher. If your in a place that can freeze then they could potentially freeze and start to pull the lining apart. (i know it is not a huge thing but re gluing or replacing the linings as a whole can be time consuming and costly.)

Helm/steering;
What was repaired? Id say she was fully under water there if other things inside the yacht were replaced. Any component used for the steering that was not replaced could potentially be an issue, especially areas that are hard to get to. Humans are lazy and if it is too hard 90% of humans give up or overlook. My best suggestion test is to lick your finger in different hard to reach places or even use a telescopic pole and a clean fresh cloth to rub onto your finger/cloth some hard to reach places on the yacht that normally should not have salt in it and taste it. If it is salty then there is a good chance it has not been thoroughly cleaned or hosed out. remember we are lazy greedy people that put profits ahead of anything 90% of the time.

Electricals;
Id say that EVERY electrical item including runs of wires from every part of the boat should have been replaced these will die because of salt.
You say the microwave was replaced. Why? it is very high up on the boat. Id say from explanations that she was well and truly submerged with very little out of the water.

110 v electrical system, were all plugs and cables completely replaced? Starting from the back all the way to the front? You did not mention the 110v system.

Radar chartplotter, radios etc; Were they replaced? if not why not if everything else was? Even if they are advertised as a closed unit id speak to the manufactures and ask them what to do in case of boat sinking. Should they be replaced, cleaned etc.

Dinghy/outboard:

Does it have one and if so where was it when the problem happened. If the outboard was wet how was it cleaned and where are the receipts.

Saiing/engine hours logbook;

Is there a current log book? read it in depth! How many hours have been done on her since the sinking? If it is 100-200 hrs then she has hardly been tested since the sinking. Engine hrs vs km traveled on log since the sinking date?

Honesty:
Ask them why they didn't outline the fact that it had sunk to you when you first inquired about the yacht. Ask them that if they were buying a yacht from another broker would they expect info like that to be disclosed at the onset? As mentioned used car/boat salesmen amongst other professional careers lie to sell. It is unfortunate but they are there to get as much out of you as possible. And at whatever expense as they don't care.

For what it is worth Shane, The asking price is a little high on the ad, and if you have knocked 30k off that then you are about at what others ask as an asking price. Please forgive me if the yacht I am looking at in the ad is not the one your interested in. is there something in the name of the yacht that talks about an older persons hair colour?

If you are interested you can PM me and I am more than happy to go over what has been discussed and what reports you have been given to evaluate your situation. All I would do is provide you with a list of Q's Id be asking from that point and advice on what I would do with the answers provided.

I am not a skipper, not a qualified yacht person in any way however I am extremely thorough, have been through pitfalls, fix my own yacht with knowledge and have fixed others for them when they have had problems.

If this yacht is sold at the right price reflecting the fact that it has been partially sunk then it could be a great investment. Given the prices I have seen others for sale for and the asking price on the one you are interested in then I don't think it has been heavily discounted. I think the broker/owner has agreed on the fair market price of that yacht. You can go lower, if they argue with that then walk away.

Do not consider unless all reciepts have been shown outlining work carried out. Do not believe what either of them tell you unless you have written proof.

Another thing to do is ask the surveyor and the repairer; if they were not rich and wanted to own and live on a yacht and knowing what they know about this particular yacht would they part with there extremely hard earned cash on this one. One thing I find is that if you put them in your feet and they have nothing to gain or lose out of it then they will probably give you an honest answer. Obviously taking into consideration that that yard may be a closed shop and if it is then they will all look after each other an probably lie to you.

Shane these are production yachts, they are all the same really however some have been looked after well and some have not. Taking away the cosmetic looks, yours has not been looked after well. Remembering that the cosmetic side of the boat is usually the cheapest and easiest to replace.

If all things have been replaced effectively and properly and you have it within a price range that can cover any other big ticket items that could have been damaged then it could be great for you.

Good luck and please get in contact with me if you want help. I hate people who take advantage of others and I know what it is like to be an unsuspecting yacht buyer. Oh BTW I am so thorough that I read everything and hold insurance companies accountable when their lying deceiving assessors and case managers try to bamboozle you and get out of a claim or heavily reduce what they offer you.

I also know that once they have beaten the claimant up in price to get a better outcome for them they then start to beat the repairer/s down in price to get a better deal for the insurer. If this is the case in your circumstance then the repairers will cut corners to maximise their profits. No one cares about you Shane except Shane!

Cheers
Dave

harbin2 · 29-01-2019, 03:46

This is what a reputable surveyor told me a few years ago. If the boat is discounted properly to account for it's condition then you will be getting what you paid for. The current owner should be the one to take the financial loss for the condition - not you. If you pay too much, and sell the boat in the future, you will be paying for the damage if your (future) buyer wants a discounted price to account for the same condition.
To me, the key is to convey this position to the seller and have a good plan on how you will quantify the damage done. There is a positive value in all the new equipment that can offset some of value lost from the accident.
It's all about setting the right price - NOW. Doing that should help you mentally going forward if you do purchase the boat.

Kenomac · 29-01-2019, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by davil

OK

last post from Regex on the 23th

I CANNOT TAKE IT ANY MORE

my shrink refuses to give me more sedatives
my barber does not want to talk any more
my bartender avoids me
DID HE BUY IT?????

He moved forward with survey.

Tricolor · 29-01-2019, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnestV

Well, you just had your second happy moment then I presume

[emoji2] with boats only two happy moments, when you buy her and when you sell her.

Kenomac · 29-01-2019, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tricolor

[emoji2] with boats only two happy moments, when you buy her and when you sell her.

I suppose that happens when one purchases a lousy old boat in a bad location. We have two happy moments each year, one when we arrive at our boat in Italy for the summer, and another when we arrive at our second boat for the rest of the season.

RSB333 · 29-01-2019, 08:50

I'm currently sailing a boat that was a known "fixer upper" when purchased. I had a thorough survey, and based on the results, fixed the price to cover known and potential repair costs. If you love the boat, and are ready to deal with fixing whatever may surface later, get the survey and drive the price to a level that will cover any residual risk of deterioration from the incident. It's not uncommon for the price adjustment to go 15% or more below the agreed price based on the survey. (Full disclosure: I'm not a first time buyer) Good luck with a tough decision. RSB

ajchan · 29-01-2019, 11:29

The fact that the boat hit hard enough to cause delamination around the keel joint would cause me to turn away. Every sailor runs aground eventually and some of us do it harder and more often than others.

If a boat goes aground hard enough to cause delamination it means that it hit very hard in which case the visible delamination is not the only delamination. Or the hull was not that strong to begin with and you need to wonder about the overall quality of the model.

There are thousands of boats for sale and probably 100’s at any given time in MDR. I would keep looking. You question is like asking your best friend if you should marry this really great girl you met. If you need to ask it probably isn’t right.

Addison

regex · 12-02-2019, 16:41

Update from the OP:

Well. We bought her! We closed today!

For all those that told me not to - I hope you are wrong, but I will come clean if you are and report back should "bad things happen".
For all those that told me to be methodical but not to walk away until you have all the survey reports - I hope you are right, and I will report back in a year to give an update.

Re: Surveys. I hired 3 from personally reference folks I trust. We had an "overall" a "mechanical" and a "standing rigging" surveyor. Yes, it was more expensive because I paid three experts to evaluate her but it was 100% worth it. All 3 were very impressed finding minor things across the board and I heard many comments about "this is a really clean boat, regardless of her history". Obviously, there is no such thing as a perfect survey, but I feel good we went the extra mile to find as much as possible.

Thanks for all the advice folks. I appreciate it.

Fair winds!