Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by laird

Well you have me in suspense how is the potential buy going ?

Good grief...not well. The broker is a really nice guy and the two contingencies are 1) I hear the engine run and 2) The boat gets over to the haul-out (at my expense) and let me sound the hull and check the running gear and rudder bushing, ect. I had asked him a week ago to get on that but since it's not my boat, I can only ask him nicely if he had done that yet. The day the haul-out was to happen, he then tried to start the engine after months of it not being used and you guessed it, no power to the panel. The last word as of a few days ago was..."Call me when the engine is running and a new haul-out date set".

[SuW]

Originally Posted by CaptWho

Columbia 43 Sailboat - $29,000 (san rafael ca)
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa...426656288.html

Another one of those ads with an unlikely lack of details, except from a boating encyclopedia website, and no pictures except (apparently) a stock photo.

Avoid.

[KGarwick]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Good grief...not well. The broker is a really nice guy and the two contingencies are 1) I hear the engine run and 2) The boat gets over to the haul-out (at my expense) and let me sound the hull and check the running gear and rudder bushing, ect. I had asked him a week ago to get on that but since it's not my boat, I can only ask him nicely if he had done that yet. The day the haul-out was to happen, he then tried to start the engine after months of it not being used and you guessed it, no power to the panel. The last word as of a few days ago was..."Call me when the engine is running and a new haul-out date set".

If it's a decent engine model it will probably be ok, whether or not you can actually hear it run. You'll need to do a complete teardown anyways, to adjust the valves and replace the pump (and plugs). If it's a deisel engine, it's probably ok unless the head is cracked. But the owner needs to disclose any known issues with the motor.

But the haul out is a problem and an expensive one at that. I would absolutely insist on the seller paying this fee or no boat. You MUST NOT take possession of an old boat on the water at an affordable price. Trust me on this, there are far too many things to go wrong. Anything that happens to be working is just dumb luck. You should assume that the seacocks are bad, because they probably are and that can sink your boat and kill you. You should insist that the hull is structurally sound, unless the seller fully discloses deficiencies that you are willing to accept. But it's the seller's boat and proving that the boat is sound is their problem, not yours.

The seller pays the haul out, and you can pay him/her back upon purchase. But if you fund the haul and discover that the hull is delaminated, you are screwed.

So worry less about the motor and more about the haul.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by KGarwick

If it's a decent engine model it will probably be ok, whether or not you can actually hear it run. You'll need to do a complete teardown anyways, to adjust the valves and replace the pump (and plugs). If it's a deisel engine, it's probably ok unless the head is cracked. But the owner needs to disclose any known issues with the motor.

But the haul out is a problem and an expensive one at that. I would absolutely insist on the seller paying this fee or no boat. You MUST NOT take possession of an old boat on the water at an affordable price. Trust me on this, there are far too many things to go wrong. Anything that happens to be working is just dumb luck. You should assume that the seacocks are bad, because they probably are and that can sink your boat and kill you. You should insist that the hull is structurally sound, unless the seller fully discloses deficiencies that you are willing to accept. But it's the seller's boat and proving that the boat is sound is their problem, not yours.

The seller pays the haul out, and you can pay him/her back upon purchase. But if you fund the haul and discover that the hull is delaminated, you are screwed.

So worry less about the motor and more about the haul.

The engine is a Westerbeke 4-107 (Perkins with a little over 2000 hours on it. Not sure why you would think it need a "complete tear down". Not sure where you come up with your other conclusions but every boat is different depending on periodic maintenance. The vessel had a semi-regular diver on it and I have seen the reports.

This is not my first rodeo. I've built from plans, 2 steel boats of my own and helped with a few others. I have restored countless sailboats and cruised extensively. I've never heard in the 46 years I have been doing this that the seller pays for a haul out and I have never paid for a survey, selling a boat. If the buyer wants to hire a surveyor it's on the buyers nickle.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I've never heard in the 46 years I have been doing this that the seller pays for a haul out and I have never paid for a survey, selling a boat. If the buyer wants to hire a surveyor it's on the buyers nickle.

Yep, in no deal I’ve ever been part of has the seller paid haul out or survey fees. That is 100% on the buyer.

The only time I’ve saved some money is as part of the sale, the seller agreed to fix a sea cock issue, so we went halves on haul out.

N

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by KGarwick

You MUST NOT take possession of an old boat on the water at an affordable price.

Unless that price + disposal costs are low enough (relative to potential value and the buyer's means) to be worth a roll of the dice.

But yes, risky

[KGarwick]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

Yep, in no deal I’ve ever been part of has the seller paid haul out or survey fees. That is 100% on the buyer.

The only time I’ve saved some money is as part of the sale, the seller agreed to fix a sea cock issue, so we went halves on haul out.

N

I never said anything about a survey.

[KGarwick]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

The engine is a Westerbeke 4-107 (Perkins with a little over 2000 hours on it. Not sure why you would think it need a "complete tear down". Not sure where you come up with your other conclusions but every boat is different depending on periodic maintenance. The vessel had a semi-regular diver on it and I have seen the reports.

This is not my first rodeo. I've built from plans, 2 steel boats of my own and helped with a few others. I have restored countless sailboats and cruised extensively. I've never heard in the 46 years I have been doing this that the seller pays for a haul out and I have never paid for a survey, selling a boat. If the buyer wants to hire a surveyor it's on the buyers nickle.

Yup, you're obviously an expert. Go do whatever you want, my suggestion was intended to help you. I never said anything about a survey. Leave the engine alone and run it on blind faith. Go spend money on a boat that isn't yours, I'm certain that the owner will appreciate you paying to haul the boat out for them. Clearly, your experience of 46 years trumps any suggestions that I might offer.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by KGarwick

Yup, you're obviously an expert. Go do whatever you want, my suggestion was intended to help you. I never said anything about a survey. Leave the engine alone and run it on blind faith. Go spend money on a boat that isn't yours, I'm certain that the owner will appreciate you paying to haul the boat out for them. Clearly, your experience of 46 years trumps any suggestions that I might offer.

Thank you for you condescending comment. Fair enough...you said haul-out. Now why would you haul out the boat unless you were to survey under the waterline? The point was...that is on the buyer, not the seller. Happy now? And by the way, the sellers are not going to be there during the haul out as they have no interest in the findings.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by KGarwick

I never said anything about a survey.

The seller doesn’t usually (in 99.9% of cases) pay for the haul out OR survey...

While I appreciate you’re trying to be helpful, stating that a boat isn’t worth pursuing if the seller doesn’t pay for the survey is flat out incorrect.

N

[Island Time O25]

I think we're getting a bit mixed up here. I see people used to buying 100-200k+ boats giving advice to people looking at <30k boats. Two different animals.

As someone who had all of his 5 boats in the ladder category I can assure you that most often than not the buyer of <30k boat simply does not have the budget to pay for haul outs and surveys of boats they may not ever own. That's a fact.

Secondly, it comes down to who wants that sale to go through more - the buyer or the seller. I've been in both situations.

Third, of course there is a risk of buying an expensive to own toy but it should be weighed against the risk of wasting $1,000s on other people's boats only to find out that none come out with a clean bill of health.

Wherein lies the balance for <30k crowd - learn enough to be able to do one's own mini survey or bring a salty friend for the cost of a case of beer to help you with a thorough lookover. We, on the lower end of boat market, have enough impediments to becoming owners to be discouraged some more by ridiculous arbitrary "who pays for the survey haul out" customs of the moneyd crowd.

I've done 2 surveys though ended up owning 5 boats at different times. One I ended up paying for the survey and not buying that boat (the seller wouldn't discount from the price the full amount of repairs suggested by the surveyor as necessary). The other, on the boat I ended up getting, I had an agreement with the seller (with hindsight of previous experience) that if I go forward with the deal he picks up the survey tab. If I'm not going with the deal the survey tab is on me. That survey found the boat only needed new raw water pump which the seller replaced, otherwise the boat was in condition expected for its age and price.

The boat purchase is not a set in stone ancient marriage custom in some faraway -stan. It's a negotiation between parties reflecting a bunch of varying factors. I don't think what works for a 500k boat will work for a 5k one. And of course vice versa.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

The boat purchase is not a set in stone ancient marriage custom in some faraway -stan. It's a negotiation between parties reflecting a bunch of varying factors. I don't think what works for a 500k boat will work for a 5k one. And of course vice versa.

Careful.... you’re straying into the grounds of survey vs self survey / no survey😂

All very good points and it boils down to what the boat’s worth and whether you’re comfortable enough to self-survey.

FWIW, I’ve never owned a £100k+ boat and have had 2 out of 4 boats surveyed... and to be honest, both those surveys were utter rubbish and I’ve ended up with far better boats in the two I surveyed myself or had a knowledgable friend survey.

I’d never walk away from a boat if the seller didn’t pay for the haul out / survey but then depending on the boat (the Newporter Ackmann in the last page for one), I’d survey it myself with a moisture meter and 3 hours of my time, and take the risk myself. The big red flag is if the seller is cagey with details and doesn’t let you have a really good poke around... that’s when I’d for sure walk away.

On that note, did anyone ever go check out that Newporter? It’s definitely high on my list if we ever get out of this Covid travel ban purgatory.

N

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I think we're getting a bit mixed up here. I see people used to buying 100-200k+ boats giving advice to people looking at <30k boats. Two different animals.

As someone who had all of his 5 boats in the ladder category I can assure you that most often than not the buyer of <30k boat simply does not have the budget to pay for haul outs and surveys of boats they may not ever own. That's a fact.

Secondly, it comes down to who wants that sale to go through more - the buyer or the seller. I've been in both situations.

Third, of course there is a risk of buying an expensive to own toy but it should be weighed against the risk of wasting $1,000s on other people's boats only to find out that none come out with a clean bill of health.

Wherein lies the balance for <30k crowd - learn enough to be able to do one's own mini survey or bring a salty friend for the cost of a case of beer to help you with a thorough lookover. We, on the lower end of boat market, have enough impediments to becoming owners to be discouraged some more by ridiculous arbitrary "who pays for the survey haul out" customs of the moneyd crowd.

I've done 2 surveys though ended up owning 5 boats at different times. One I ended up paying for the survey and not buying that boat (the seller wouldn't discount from the price the full amount of repairs suggested by the surveyor as necessary). The other, on the boat I ended up getting, I had an agreement with the seller (with hindsight of previous experience) that if I go forward with the deal he picks up the survey tab. If I'm not going with the deal the survey tab is on me. That survey found the boat only needed new raw water pump which the seller replaced, otherwise the boat was in condition expected for its age and price.

The boat purchase is not a set in stone ancient marriage custom in some faraway -stan. It's a negotiation between parties reflecting a bunch of varying factors. I don't think what works for a 500k boat will work for a 5k one. And of course vice versa.

Thank you for artfully clarifying and I'm with you 100%. When and if the deal goes through I will be able to post pictures, findings and the price that was negotiated.
I have used brokers a few time and surveyors a few times. This boat was offered through a broker and hiring a surveyor to write up reams of paper about the out of date equipment on the boat and the few glaring problems did not warrant the money. Also, not mentioned before, I take my friend, who has been a boat owner for as long as I have, to give an impartial opinion of the boats I have been looking at.
Hopefully we can get back to..."Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds".

[Tetepare]

As a seller, I’d never pay for the haul. That’s on the potential buyer.

We sold our previous boat for just under $30k and the buyer had a survey. The money was worth the peace of mind to him, and cemented that he’d made a good buy.

Unless one is adept at the aspects of boats and systems, a survey is a good idea. I wonder how many sinkings could have been avoided if boats were surveyed regularly, like auto inspections. I’ll admit, there are parts of hoses and such that I don’t see often.

[laird]

Im with those that do the survey themselves on boats less than 30k , hauling it out for a check of the hull and associated items are a cost that can be clawed back on the price