Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

Scout,

You and I usually see things and often think alike.

In this case, I have mixed feelings.

I generally respect the intellectual property of others, including other photographers. I never delete copyright watermarks, and am happy to give attribution when I know who made the photo or when it is identified, etc.

In this case, I think sharing the photos of a boat that is on the market for sale, and has been published on the internet, is a different kind of issue.

As I see it, the profiles I post here on CF are within the bounds of “Fair Use” in that the photos I share here (often copied from elsewhere on the net) are intended to educate and inform and to illustrate some discussion of suitable boats. “Fair Use” is a concept in copyright issues, and I think it applies here to the way these photos are used in these discussion threads.

From the US Copyright Office:
“Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use. ”
https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

We discuss boats here, bringing to CF Member attention what is noteworthy.

My Point of View is that this thread (and a few others I started that show very good examples of boats) is intended to educate readers of CF about the various boat models and features. We also discuss boat designers, useful features, noticeable improvements, modifications, and exemplary condition.

I don’t make any money from sharing these images here and I don’t get paid by CF or brokers or owners or others to do so. I am simply trying to illustrate what I see as good boats, or the best among the many I see.

That is how I see it.

Although I am not an attorney I think you make a strong case & you certainly have good intentions. The threads you have created are my favorite part of this forum & I, as well as many others, have derived great pleasure from them. However, I'm not sure any of that will matter to an attorney for Yachtworld. Aggressively protecting MLS photos is a relatively recent occurrence so I hadn't really given using Yachtworld photos much thought. I think the main thing to consider here is that if the corporation that owns Yachtworld has thought about protecting their photos & has actually gone so far as to change the way they load photos in order to make it more difficult to copy them what will their next move be if they find out their photos are being used by a third party. You may be on the right side of the law but, unless you are very wealthy, you sure don't want to have to prove that in court.

[Bleemus]

If a boat is no longer for sail who cares about its history? It's your thread and you can manage it however you like but personally a thread with a link to a boat and a "hey gang check this one out" is just as informative. I don't know you and you don't know me. Your preferences are different than mine. You may love long overhangs and full keels but never have tried to dock one in a crowded Marina during a strong blow. We all have different desires. Posting links to good deals on boats under 30k is democratic. Making a bunch of rules about what can be posted is not.

PS Carl Alberg was a **** designer. He is adored on these forums but from a person that has sailed boats by every major designer Alberg boats suck. That includes most Cape Dorys. Stop loving him so much.

[el31415]

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...g#.W0GoBhtlChA

Morgan 382 are usually pretty cheap . Is there a reason for that ?

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

If a boat is no longer for sail who cares about its history? It's your thread and you can manage it however you like but personally a thread with a link to a boat and a "hey gang check this one out" is just as informative. I don't know you and you don't know me. Your preferences are different than mine. You may love long overhangs and full keels but never have tried to dock one in a crowded Marina during a strong blow. We all have different desires. Posting links to good deals on boats under 30k is democratic. Making a bunch of rules about what can be posted is not.

Firstly, I think you need a lesson in democracy. Rules have always been a part of it and are appropriate here. CruisersForum has an established set of rules and those are the only rules that apply to this thread. Steadman may have started the thread & attempted to guide it but he can't create rules & hasn't tried to. What he has tried to do is make this more than just a thread about finding another boat for sale. For me boats are a passion & the history and qualities of a particular boat design are much more interesting than just posting another boat for sale. If all you care about is seeing another boat for sale I suggest Yachtworld, Craigslist or Sailboatlistings.com.

[Scout 30]

Here's some Sam Crocker designs currently on the market & some info on a great American yacht designer:

Sam S Crocker - Classic Yacht Info
https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailbo...tch-comes-home
https://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/d...622930974.html
1994 Andrew J Potito Sam Crocker Salley Rover sailboat for sale in Maine
1933 Sam Crocker sailboat sailboat for sale in Massachusetts
1936 Sam Crocker Chute & Bixby Ketch sailboat for sale in Connecticut
1940 Sam Crocker New Bedford 35 sailboat for sale in Maine

[thomm225]

Apache 37 - $11,999

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...642742273.html

[Capn Jimbo]

Originally Posted by prof_mariner

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but "borrowing" copyrighted material from a website is illegal. I know lots of people do it, but if Yachtworld were ever to choose to they could shut down this forum and website pretty quickly.

And if my grandmother were a streetcar, she'd have wheels, lol. Relax. Steadman rightfully brings up the well known Fair Use Doctrine. Educational and non-commercial use is tolerated if not encouraged. The MLS citation is fair but unrelated in that there are brokers who lift an image as if it were their own, and then post their own advertisements, hoping to obtain a co-brokerage commission. Entirely commercial and absolutely a form of stealing with an eye toward profit.

OTOH, TONS of photos and other quoted material that pepper almost every forum have no commercial intention and in no way denies the owner any profit or traffic. Fair use is well, fair use.

That YW makes their photos hard to lift does not automatically imply that they will surely sue. What is much more likely is that if they find a particularly commercial and egregious use (not fair), the "borrower" is much more likely to get a cease and desist email, usually quite enough. In the instant case, you can be sure YW is VERY familiar with this thread and would have already contacted CF long ago if they were in the least perturbed, especially since Fair Use and copyright law has been around for decades.

Steadman's citation of Fair Use is on point. YW's ignoring this thread is supportive; especially in that any link to them is to their benefit. Frankly if it did not threaten their ultimate ownership and copyrights, they would openly support Steadman.

[Capn Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

If a boat is no longer for sail who cares about its history? It's your thread and you can manage it however you like but personally a thread with a link to a boat and a "hey gang check this one out" is just as informative. I don't know you and you don't know me. Your preferences are different than mine. You may love long overhangs and full keels but never have tried to dock one in a crowded Marina during a strong blow. We all have different desires. Posting links to good deals on boats under 30k is democratic. Making a bunch of rules about what can be posted is not.

PS Carl Alberg was a **** designer. He is adored on these forums but from a person that has sailed boats by every major designer Alberg boats suck. That includes most Cape Dorys. Stop loving him so much.

Whew! Having a bad day? No doubt. Of course there are many good sailors who would disagree with most of the points you make. That's boating. Hint: it's perfectly possible to succinctly express your own opinions without having to denigrate others, or by name calling. Please realize that when you do so with anyone, not least a popular designer, the result is a loss of your own credibility.

Believe me gentleman can disagree without the negative fluff.

[vonotto]

The purpose of the Fair Use Doctrine is to allow for limited and reasonable uses as long as the use does not interfere with owners’ rights or impede their right to do with the work as they wish.
Since this discussion will only pertain to use of images online, I will use examples specific to this.

A classic example of fair use of an image online is product reviews. If you want to review a book, a new piece of technology, a food product or whatever widget, you’ll likely want to include a photo. But not some washed-out, overexposed, shadowy, laundry in the background kind of photo that you’d take.

So you head to the manufacturer’s website and right-click that image and save it to upload to your site. A photo will not substitute for the actual product, so the owner’s rights should be very minimally affected. Therefore, your right to use the copyrighted image would likely be permitted under fair use.*

Fair use is in place for the greater good, to allow copyrighted works to be used without permission for the benefit of the public. Imagine not being able to use images of a dead dictator to tell the story of how he died. Or not being able to talk about fashion without showing the outfit you’re referring to.

If you read the US code the photos on yachtworld if used elsewhere are of minimal impact on that company and in fact helping it do what it is trying to do, advertise boats. And being minimally impacted make the photos fair use.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Apache 37 - $11,999

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...642742273.html

A buddy years ago tried to purchase one of these but was not able then to financially swing it. We spent a lot of time on that particular boat & getting to know the class. They have a reputation for being rock solid. Not many around. Certainly not a lot of glitz, but common for a price production boat of the time. While solid construction & design, it tends not to be a well known boat, perhaps because is was from builder known for power boats. For those potential price point buyers looking at Catalina's, etc., this boat's bones will likely continue to age more gracefully.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by old frog

A buddy years ago tried to purchase one of these but was not able then to financially swing it. We spent a lot of time on that particular boat & getting to know the class. They have a reputation for being rock solid. Not many around. Certainly not a lot of glitz, but common for a price production boat of the time. While solid construction & design, it tends not to be a well known boat, perhaps because is was from builder known for power boats. For those potential price point buyers looking at Catalina's, etc., this boat's bones will likely continue to age more gracefully.

Thanks for the info. I've been debating whether to buy it but it's 37' and I don't really need all that at the moment. It's diesel is almost new. Iron Keel I think

Also, it looks about as good up close as in the pictures. The owner is an older guy and he says it's too much for him to handle these days.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

The MLS citation is fair but unrelated in that there are brokers who lift an image as if it were their own, and then post their own advertisements, hoping to obtain a co-brokerage commission. Entirely commercial and absolutely a form of stealing with an eye toward profit.

Brokers access YW via a separate portal, boatwizard.com.

Unlike YW, in boatwizard.com the "copy image" and "save image" commands still exist and brokers can copy/paste/save any image in a listing.

I don't know why YW instituted the new policy on the publicly available YW, but it seems that the new policy is not in place to prevent brokers from obtaining photos from the competition.


Example:

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by old frog

A buddy years ago tried to purchase one of these but was not able then to financially swing it. We spent a lot of time on that particular boat & getting to know the class. They have a reputation for being rock solid. Not many around. Certainly not a lot of glitz, but common for a price production boat of the time. While solid construction & design, it tends not to be a well known boat, perhaps because is was from builder known for power boats. For those potential price point buyers looking at Catalina's, etc., this boat's bones will likely continue to age more gracefully.

Here's a listing of another Apache that's been gussied up. Beautiful boat.

1969 Sparkman & Stephens Apache 37 Boats for Sale - Brewer Yacht Sales

[thomm225]

Cal 25

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...644632275.html

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Here's a listing of another Apache that's been gussied up. Beautiful boat.

1969 Sparkman & Stephens Apache 37 Boats for Sale - Brewer Yacht Sales

Those Chris Craft S&S boats had a great rep back in the day. There is some issue with the iron keel and keel bolts I THINK, not positive. If the keel and bolts check out in survey I'd say that is a really nice choice!