bottom paint additive

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Both ivermectin and medetomidine (and others) have been tested for their antifouling capabilites and are part of the list of prime candidates for replacing copper as a biocide in bottom paints. It will happen.

No it won't. Drugs like these are allegedly effective against higher forms like barnacles and other shelled animals but have little or no effectiveness against soft fouling growth. At best they will remain as co-biocides in anti fouling paint. They will never replace heavy metals like copper or zinc as the primary biocide.

Originally Posted by Bill O

Some manufacturers (like Pettit/Trinidad) over the years have been slowly reducing the copper content in their bottom paints and they have become less effective in reducing hull fouling.

Again, 100% untrue. Pettit has found methods to make less copper more effective and Trinidad remains one of the best (and highest copper content) anti fouling paints you can buy in this country. They have not been "slowly slowly reducing the copper content in their bottom paints" until it is no longer an effective product. I maintain Trinidad bottoms every single day of the week and I can tell you that it is every bit as good now as it was ten years ago.

[Bill O]

examples of others that differ in your belief about copper

https://www.paint.org/coatingstech-m...latory-update/

http://www.ebhportalen.se/SiteCollec...%20project.pdf

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Bill O

examples of others differ in your belief about copper...

In the former report to which you linked;, there is nothing that refutes anything I said. In fact, "Copper continues to prove itself to be an effective active ingredient in antifouling coatings with limited negative effects. Where those effects are found to be of concern, copper leach-rate limits, best hull management practices, and alternatives coatings, have been proposed to environmentally protect recreational marinas."

Regarding the latter report to which you linked; it is specific to a body of cold, brackish water in the northern latitudes. Hardly a region of high fouling. Any regulation of anti fouling paints there has little or no relevance to what is happening in this country.

[Bill O]

Seems clear like they were discussing the US in the first link.

"Recent proposals submitted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) have expanded the focus of restricting the use of copper, while such restrictions have heretofore been confined to the states of Washington and California, and a handful of municipalities in the United States."

..and I wasn't just limiting the copper reduction/elimination to the US, the rest of the world's thoughts on the environmental impact counts also.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Seems clear like they were discussing the US in the first link.


"Recent proposals submitted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) have expanded the focus of restricting the use of copper, while such restrictions have heretofore been confined to the states of Washington and California, and a handful of municipalities in the United States."

While copper as a biocide has been regulated to a certain extent in some places, it has not been replaced nor is it currently in danger of becoming so. But when that happens (and you indicated in no uncertain terms that it would), you let us know, OK?

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

While copper as a biocide has been regulated to a certain extent in some places, it has not been replaced nor is it currently in danger of becoming so. But when that happens (and you indicated in no uncertain terms that it would), you let us know, OK?

Guess it's no different than you saying something is 100% untrue.

I have used Trinidad paint for >15 yrs and have seen the copper content slowly being reduced. This is a fact (from the labels) and by my observations on the east coast the paint isn't working as well. To each their own belief.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Guess it's no different than you saying something is 100% untrue.

I have used Trinidad paint for >15 yrs and have seen the copper content slowly being reduced. This is a fact (from the labels) and by my observations on the east coast the paint isn't working as well. To each their own belief.

The Trinidad SRS SDS and ads still say 60-70% copper (most resent update from Pettit). Some other paints are reduced.

There is also a 40% copper paint (Utlima 40 vs. Ultima 60). Perhaps you got them confused? I don't know. You'll have to show us the labels, since these are the facts as published by Pettit and it is not about "belief" for me.

http://12.43.214.45/media/2898/1677-pettit-trinidad-sr-red-a1167706-sds-pdf-1.pdf

https://www.pettitpaint.com/products...d/trinidad-sr/

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The Trinidad SRS SDS and ads still say 60-70% copper (most resent update from Pettit). Some other paints are reduced.

There is also a 40% copper paint (Utlima 40 vs. Ultima 60). Perhaps you got them confused? I don't know. You'll have to show us the labels, since these are the facts as published by Pettit and it is not about "belief" for me.

http://12.43.214.45/media/2898/1677-pettit-trinidad-sr-red-a1167706-sds-pdf-1.pdf

https://www.pettitpaint.com/products...d/trinidad-sr/

Speaking of opinions:

Q: Do you know what they say about opinions?
A: Take away the 3.14159265359, and you have onions.

Q: What do you call a cruiser with an opinion?
A: Names

Q: What’s the difference between a right-wing extremist, and a left-wing extremist?
A: One wants to get rid of your opinion, because it infringes on their rights, the other wants to get rid of your rights, because it infringes on their opinion.

People keep telling me I don't value other opinions enough.
Little do they know.

I don't care about your opinion, left will always be cozy and warm, and right will always be cold and bitter.
That's how the sink taps work.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The Trinidad SRS SDS and ads still say 60-70% copper (most resent update from Pettit). Some other paints are reduced.

There is also a 40% copper paint (Utlima 40 vs. Ultima 60). Perhaps you got them confused? I don't know. You'll have to show us the labels, since these are the facts as published by Pettit and it is not about "belief" for me.

http://12.43.214.45/media/2898/1677-pettit-trinidad-sr-red-a1167706-sds-pdf-1.pdf

https://www.pettitpaint.com/products...d/trinidad-sr/

I am a chemist and can read a label. While there are many versions of Trinidad (Regular, SR, Pro and 75) w/different amounts of CO, I have purchased the "same" product for several bottom jobs and am not confused.

Sorry, I don't have my old cans nor photos of the labels over the multitude of years of using the same product to prove to you they are being reduced. (showing me the current label isn't comparing it to an older version of the same product).

People can test products and don't always show their experimental model nor the raw data, but none the less provide conclusions. Guess you have to take their word that they are being factual in their observations/findings. Similarly, the reduced antifouling effectiveness is based on my observation that the "same" paint doesn't last as long as it did before. (and yes, I applied it per instructions and similarly for the different bottom jobs)

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Bill O

I am a chemist and can read a label. While there are many versions of Trinidad (Regular, SR, Pro and 75) w/different amounts of CO, I have purchased the "same" product for several bottom jobs and am not confused ...

Which might suggest that you shouldn't be confused about the differences between Carbon Monoxide [CO], and Copper [Cu].

[PirateGuy]

Copper content may or may not have changed, but have our coastal waters degraded even further over the past 15 years? More and more of humanity lives along seacoasts - sewage, even after treatment, contains nutrients that fuel bio-growth.
Warmer water also increases biological growth.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Bill O

I am a chemist and can read a label. While there are many versions of Trinidad (Regular, SR, Pro and 75) w/different amounts of CO, I have purchased the "same" product for several bottom jobs and am not confused.

Sorry, I don't have my old cans nor photos of the labels over the multitude of years of using the same product to prove to you they are being reduced. (showing me the current label isn't comparing it to an older version of the same product).

People can test products and don't always show their experimental model nor the raw data, but none the less provide conclusions. Guess you have to take their word that they are being factual in their observations/findings. Similarly, the reduced antifouling effectiveness is based on my observation that the "same" paint doesn't last as long as it did before. (and yes, I applied it per instructions and similarly for the different bottom jobs)

[I swear I'm just teasing--no hard feelings]


Your paint cans identified the amount of carbon monoxide (CO vs. CuO)?


BTW, Trinidad SR has always been 60-70%. Ultima 60 is 60% and Ultima 40 is 40%. Other products I won't guess. The other thing to remember is that results are different every season. I have done panel testing, and the differences can be very large. You always run control panels with paints you have used before, and rankings are always relative.



I've been using Ultima 40 for 8 years (4 jobs) and this time I've gotten the best results ever. Better paint? No, I doubt that. I think I have sailed more consistently. But weather and water chemistry have probably also been factors.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Which might suggest that you shouldn't be confused about the differences between Carbon Monoxide [CO], and Copper [Cu].

As many abbreviate things for quicker reading, my CO abbreviation was not for carbon monoxide, but for Cuprous Oxide. The cuprous oxide level is typically the usual way they list copper content on the label for bottom paint, but some do list additionally on the label the conversion of CuO to Cu.

Since we were talking about copper in bottom paint would not have guessed anyone would jump to that conclusion. I have been proven incorrect and will list it forward as CuO for all the chemists in the crowd.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by thinwater

[I swear I'm just teasing--no hard feelings]


Your paint cans identified the amount of carbon monoxide (CO vs. CuO)?


BTW, Trinidad SR has always been 60-70%. Ultima 60 is 60% and Ultima 40 is 40%. Other products I won't guess. The other thing to remember is that results are different every season. I have done panel testing, and the differences can be very large. You always run control panels with paints you have used before, and rankings are always relative.



I've been using Ultima 40 for 8 years (4 jobs) and this time I've gotten the best results ever. Better paint? No, I doubt that. I think I have sailed more consistently. But weather and water chemistry have probably also been factors.

Maybe I've been painting boat bottoms longer than you have been testing (lol), but black and red Trinidad (not SR in this case) was labeled 75% CuO back in the day and had more copper than the blue or green colors (of the same product). I always used the red or black. The current Trinidad for all colors is listed at 65%.
In 2018 w/the shortage of Ingarol (SR and Pro products), they did play around w/the amount of copper in the paint to make an adjustment.
I'm still a hard paint guy and will take your word about good performance w/the Ultima 40.

[seandepagnier]

I met somehow who has a gallon of ivermectin he says he puts a small amount in a gallon (I think it's 0.1%) of bottom paint.


So I am not really interested in trinidad or what they plan to do with their paint. I have this $60/gal paint off defender (only 30% copper) and wondering if it is worth bothering putting additives in it or not. I am interested in effectiveness and legality.