Bow thruster wiring... a lot going on here — J 54 DS

[blue_dream]

I need a little help sorting through this there seems to be some PO add one that make some of this gear redundant.


Ok guys so under the forward bunk starboard side is where four marine starting batteries are housed that power the bow thruster and windlass.


Four batteries hooked up 2 and 2 in series for 24v then those hooked up in parallel.

Also in the late are
(2) Cristec DC to DC converters hooked up to each battery they are 12/24/6

(1) Orion Dc/Dc converter high efficiency charger

(1) pro sport battery charger

Now in order to get out of the yard after I launched I hooked up the four batteries and only to their main attachment points. After doing this both the bow thruster and windlass worked fine.

The pro marine dual bank charger is obviously a new addition and wired to the 120 to charge two of the series batteries.

The cristecs seem to be only attached to each other and then one to each battery.

The Orion seems to come off of one series set and goes to the windlass. With the output (20-30v) going to the batteries and the input (9-18v) going to the windlass.

Neither the Orion nor windlass was hooked up while both bow thruster and windlass worked.

I’m wondering if they are part of an old system that was possibly not 24v and if I can remove them.

Or maybe they are taking the ~24v off the batteries and making it an exact voltage? And I got lucky that my voltage was in a tight range as they were new batteries?

Thank you!

Any insight would save me a lot of time here

[blue_dream]

More pics

[blue_dream]

Another shot

[blue_dream]

The two wires going from the Orion out of the compartment link up with wires coming from somewhere aft so guessing this is how it charges the batteries off alternator from 12v

[Montanan]

Recommend that you draw a schematic diagram of the complete system, 1) for your own understanding and evaluation; 2) so as to be able to share for evaluation by the forum members.

It is very hard to determine your system by just looking at snapshots what with the jumble of wires and components.

[Montanan]

I noticed that there is a disconnected dual wire Red cable with a terminal end laying on top of the second battery from the top of your photos. Why?

It is never good to have loose disconnected terminals located near a power source.

[Texasvlad]

The battery contacts have to have a rubber cap to prevent from an accidental shortage by loose wire or any another loose metal objects,

[Montanan]

I am unclear as to the circuitry but I noticed numerous places where apparently cables of opposite polarity [e.g., black and red] are bundle tied together so as to be in contact with each other.

If any of those cables are not protected by a fuse or a circuit breaker they could cause for uncontrolled current flow if there is a failure of their insulation. Recommend that you determine if each and every crossed contact or parallel contact bundling of the wires has a fuse or circuit breaker upstream towards the power source(s) of such close proximity wiring pathways so as to provide for opening of any short circuit that may inadvertently arise. If there isn't a current breaker upstream towards the power source then either a fuse or circuit breaker that is rated at an amperage below the amperage rating of the cable conductors should be installed or adjust the pathway of the opposing polarity wires so as to not be in contact with each other.

[MarkI]

I cannot follow your wiring description. Double the request for a schematic, AND add wire weight to it!

But I will add, some boats are factory wired with a heavy gauge wire pair from the engine or main batteries to the 12v windlass. Your whole system you are looking at might be add on (after the windlass). As such it is possible that the wire you see disappearing and going to the windlass, may not be powering the windlass, but rather getting 12v power from the main battery via a mutual connection at the windlass. So maybe the power flow is from engine/main battery to windlass to the Orion, boosted to 24volts where it charges the battery. Just the opposite of your assumption I think.

Also be aware that at least one person I know has considered powering emergency things like bilge pumps from the bow thruster batteries, either permanently or as an emergency option. So the cables disappearing aft may or may not go to the main batteries.

There are lots if possibilities. Your description of the battery connections 2S2P seems clear but then you say things like "(2) Cristec DC to DC converters hooked up to each battery they are 12/24/6". With 2 Cristec and 4 batteries I have absolutely no idea what you mean. BTW are these 6 volt batteries?? I was under the impression they were 12, so I don't understand the 6 number.

IMHO, if you are considering changing things you need a schematic with wire weights, voltage reading (on visible stuff, AND the windlass and the bow thruster. Make sure you really know where the disappearing cables go, and get the manuals for the devices, so You can have a better idea what they do.

Good luck. I am interested in this subject, but cannot help much.

[GWilly]

If I were you, I'd get a qualified marine electrician down to the boat to take a look. There's just a lot going on there, and it sounds like there's some potential for redundancy and/or overkill. Its above my pay grade but I'd bet a good electrician can help you more and give you some recommendations.

[blue_dream]

Guys thank you so much I’m drawing up a schematic now.

Markl was right on the money, the disappearing wires go back to a 12v source assuming something from the engine.

I talked to PO and it seems to be the cristec 12 v converting to 24v at 6 amp (what the 6 meant) units mounted in there were the previous system before the introduction of the Orion converter/charger. I’m assuming the cristec’s were factory stock. To step up engine 12v to 24 for charging.

I wonder if there is much advantage to having the two of those units vs. the one Orion but I can figure that out quite easily looking at the manuals.

Why they didn’t take them out I don’t know but that’s what I plan on doing.

As far as the safety recommendations thank you, that’s what I’m working on sorting out, wanted to make sure everything is hooked up properly before getting rid of loose wires, tidying up boxes, etc.

Also the idea of running a bilge off the bow batteries is brilliant, thank you for that!

Thanks a lot guys great resource here.

[john61ct]

First thing is to pay the pro to help / teach you to trace everything to build up comprehensive set of documentation and wiring diagrams.

Before making any changes.

If money is a big issue, you can do most of the grunt work, just pay them for training, confirmation and specific questions as you go.

Then as you do make changes, keep your docs up to date.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by blue_dream

I need a little help sorting through this there seems to be some PO add one that make some of this gear redundant.


Ok guys so under the forward bunk starboard side is where four marine starting batteries are housed that power the bow thruster and windlass.


Four batteries hooked up 2 and 2 in series for 24v then those hooked up in parallel.

Also in the late are
(2) Cristec DC to DC converters hooked up to each battery they are 12/24/6

(1) Orion Dc/Dc converter high efficiency charger

(1) pro sport battery charger

Some basic questions. First a detailed schematic and component specification would be highly enabling to our discussion. What voltage does your bow thruster operate at?
What voltage does your windlass operate at?

Now in order to get out of the yard after I launched I hooked up the four batteries and only to their main attachment points. After doing this both the bow thruster and windlass worked fine.

So the batteries were connected as a two parallel sets of two of 2 in series to derive 24V output wired directly to both the bow thruster and the windlass which allowed both to work properly. So now you desire to add back the chargers and DC / DC converters to the mix.

The pro marine dual bank charger is obviously a new addition and wired to the 120 to charge two of the series batteries.
So it seems that you are indicating that the ProMarine / Sport charger is apparently a charger that converts from 120 AC to 24 V DC.

The cristecs seem to be only attached to each other and then one to each battery.
You will need to explain and diagram the Critecs circuitry as I think every reader is confused by this and what you mean by connected to each battery and as to what voltage conversion they are providing 24/12/6

The Orion seems to come off of one series set and goes to the windlass. With the output (20-30v) going to the batteries and the input (9-18v) going to the windlass.
Is the Orion operating as a charger & DC to DC converter for the forward 24V battery bank e.g., taking power from your alternator / generator [e.g., 12V DC input and outputting 24 DC? What do you mean by input going from the windlass; perhaps your windlass is 12V and the 24V from the forward battery bank needs to be bucked down from 24V to 12V and the Orion is providing for that as to being placed in series between the 24V battery bank and a 12V windlass? Might the input to the Orion be also from the alternator / generator, if so, at what voltage, as it is common to have the engine / genny operating to provide electrical power to a battery bank that is situated near the windlass so as to provide for minimal voltage drop when a lot of amperes are drawn to operate a low voltage windlass motor?
[B]You state that the Orion is hooked up to the terminals of only ONE of the 2 in series, 24V battery banks and not to the other paralleled 24V battery bank. It is preferrable, that a load should be connected to the positive terminal of one of the in series battery banks and to the negative terminal of the parallel like voltage in series battery bank so as to equalize draw and internal resistance of the parallel banks.B]

Neither the Orion nor windlass was hooked up while both bow thruster and windlass worked.
How could the windlass work if it was not connected to a power source?
Mystified or confused.

I’m wondering if they are part of an old system that was possibly not 24v and if I can remove them.

Or maybe they are taking the ~24v off the batteries and making it an exact voltage? And I got lucky that my voltage was in a tight range as they were new batteries?

Thank you!

Any insight would save me a lot of time here

Please reference bolded comments and questions above.

[MarkI]

I wouldn't be disconnecting anything, if it is what I think it is.

Victron Energy Orion provides 6 amps charging from another battery bank or Alternator. (current model is 20 amps to look carefully) It would make the most sense if the enable is connected to an engine running indicator. That provides charging when the engine is running with the alternator as source.

One Cristec is enough to charge the batteries from AC, so I presume they put in two to double charging rate. That would be helpful when on a generator, so the generator does not have to run as many hours. The Cristec can charge three different batteries and keep them separate. Do not be surprised to find they also charge another battery bank or even two.
They are designed to charge the engine battery and two separate house banks, while keeping them separate.

But I still wonder if the two series sets of two batteries are really connected together. If not then you may have a set of two for the thruster, and a set of two for house or other usage.

[MarkI]

To Follow up, the little box in front of the Blue Vectron Energy Orion is almost certainly a battery combiner. Those devices wait for the input voltage to rise above battery levels, which indicates a charging operation is under way. They then connector the relay which in this case powers up the main power input to the Orion (no enable circuit needed). The orion charge pumps to 24v (actually probably more like 27.6 volts). Measure the voltage with the engine running and not running.

My comments about the Cristec was based on a spec I found, but I do not have the model number. It could just as easily be designed for a 2s2p system with outputs for all four electrical nodes, rather than the three banks I described. Still I bet they are AC powered.

And I bet you and/or the PO got the names mixed up using cristec when you meant Orion.

All in all the system looks moderately well wired. Good use of terminal blocks, and the gauges look about right to me. The wall wiring is neat and the right lengths. The battery cables are a bit odd, not as well done as the wall wiring. In particular if it was well wired the series connection from one battery to the other would be less than a foot long and we would be able to follow it in the pictures. Do they connect to anything else? Maybe they corroded and someone else redid the battery part, but not as well as the rest. Maybe off the shelf cable lengths.

It sounds like you put in new batteries. Be aware that there are different chemistries, and the AC chargers probably have several settings for different kind of batteries. The manual I found supported Four different battery types. Set them correctly or risk ruining your new batteries.

Also it is advisable NOT to turn on the AC power to those chargers with partially connected outputs as shown in the picts. Once you connect them correctly, you can look for the AC breaker box, and find the circuit the powers the Cristec pair. The Lights should go on when they have ac power.

So far I do not see anything that is "relic" or old. All there for a purpose. But I also have no idea what the large white box on the right is. Is it related to the batteries, or not??