Brand Comparison

[a64pilot]

Dale, read the last paragraph of my post you quoted. You know where I said boat type is often location dependent, so far as sailing around the world I’ll go out on a limb and state that’s exceedingly unlikely, there are probably at least 100 people who start out thinking that, for every 1 that does, I thought about it, but now concede that was a fantasy, my family life, commitments etc just don’t allow it.
But also remember he has an upper limit of $100,000, and I assume that includes any refit.
That pretty much takes him to old boats, and the lighter old boats have not held up very well, balsa or plywood decks and foam cored hulls at 30 yrs old are not all issue free.

Unless you run into the Divorce sell we all hear about but never see, he’s not finding an Amel etc for less than 100K, or if he does it’s going cost that to refit it.

[Island Time O25]

I would start with the intended use and the available budget. Then you make a list of must haves, nice to haves and no-nos. And go from there. Once you have a list on paper, just limit it to the boats you found within a reasonable (for you) driving area and go see them in person. If none of these speak to you enlarge the distance and go look at some more further away.

By the time you have seen a few dozen of boats you will have a more or less clear picture of the boat that will fit your initial parameters of intended use and budget. If yo live in an area where you can't find more than a few boats for sale within your parameters you need to move to a different area. Or at least spend some significant time in an area where there are plenty of boats fitting your parameters.

And be realistic. That Swan or Hinckley you stumble upon listed for $49K will most likely be firewood. But there is 1% chance that it will be a real deal. So while you're looking be ready to make that leap. In my experience, when you start looking, the first boat you come across is often the best deal you will find. It will be confirmed if you take a week to sit on it only to find out that it went under agreement in the meantime. Ask me how I know.

[Mag3]

lots of good advice already given...

just a few other thoughts to consider:

- for where you are in the world, I'd seriously consider something that has a hard dodger for both rougher weather up in the Nordics and sun shade in the med. :-)
- I don't know how tall you are, but if you have to duck when you're downstairs it's a non-starter as a liveaboard
- a well maintained older boat is 100% the way to go.. i just put 150k into a 1980 boat totally overhauling it for ocean sailing... I'll be selling it in a year and I'll be lucky to get 125k for the boat (1980 Passport 42)... point is... someone is going to get a ****ing deal.
- make sure the essentials are in good working order - ie. not needing replacement anytime soon (standing rigging, electrical system, tanks, engine, through hulls, hull & rudder)... the rest you can piecemeal over time.


-Cheers,
-Justin

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Dale, read the last paragraph of my post you quoted. You know where I said boat type is often location dependent, so far as sailing around the world I’ll go out on a limb and state that’s exceedingly unlikely, there are probably at least 100 people who start out thinking that, for every 1 that does, I thought about it, but now concede that was a fantasy, my family life, commitments etc just don’t allow it.
But also remember he has an upper limit of $100,000, and I assume that includes any refit.
That pretty much takes him to old boats, and the lighter old boats have not held up very well, balsa or plywood decks and foam cored hulls at 30 yrs old are not all issue free.

Unless you run into the Divorce sell we all hear about but never see, he’s not finding an Amel etc for less than 100K, or if he does it’s going cost that to refit it.

Yes you did mention location regarding depth, maybe I didnt word my reply carefully.
Rarely does a extra foot make a difference, yes in your area it does, mostly every where else not, but yes I agree, if hes going to sail the Bahamas get a shallow draft from what I hear.

I was more questioning your statement regarding the HR example as performance orientated and uncomfortable? comparing to a Lamborghini just is irrelevant, a HR and equivalent arent uncomfortable, I've been on them. I throw the round the world in as a an example " that modern boats" are comfortable enough to travel further that just day sail.

I disagree that old boats are cheaper, maybe initially to purchase BUT by the time you get them up to par they often arent cheaper, "the poor man pays twice"...of course there are exceptions.

This forum is very American centric, it shows often in the preference of old designs and the myths that go with them, the rest of the world dosen't always view boats this way. I've sailed old and Ive sailed new.

You can buy reasonably modern designs that sail well and provide comfort on the used market in the price range the poster is in, and they wont suffer 40 years of age.

[daletournier]

Also hes in the Med, punch in 70-100k in yacht world Europe, he can get a good condition quite modern boat for that, it will sale better, have more room and not be so old...he'll save money by not going down the old boat path.

Not as much to choose from in the modern category in that price range in the states from what I see.

[a64pilot]

I wasn’t making myself clear I guess.
Mission drives the best boat choice, and often that’s not one of the big name brands, especially if the mission is 99% living comfortably at anchor, and not circumnavigating or other extreme sailing.
Don’t let your dreams or others talk you into a boat you don’t need, may not can afford and in honest truth isn’t the best for living aboard.
If the actual mission is living aboard and doing some sailing around, you may not need that high performance boat.
Then when you have an all in price ceiling of $100,000, that also most likely keeps you out of one of the desirable brands.
So go find the boat that you really like, the one that when you sit on the settee below you feel comfortable in and that has a nice comfortable bed etc. don’t worry about pilot berths and lee cloths etc.

On edit, a good well maintained low hour engine is worth more than you may realize, yes we are sailboats, and I was shocked once I had one just how much motoring we all do. I sail when I can, but it’s not as often as I’d like.

[ChrisJD]

Responding to one very particular part of your original post, as to boat brands: _very_ generally speaking, the French and Balkans-based monohull manufacturers make up the bulk of new cruising boats in the 30-60' range, and have for years, in part because there's a bigger market in Europe and in part because they're selling more of a commodity product. Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse (OK, German), Elan, etc.: they make modestly-built sailboats that are perfectly adapted for the charter trade and for coastal cruising - lots of space down below, decent sailing performance if you're not flogging it, relatively easy to handle. Oyster, Amel, HR, etc. make vastly more expensive boats that are overbuilt to enable their owners to cross the Pacific and know that the crew will give out long before the boat does.

This doesn't cover the European mass-producers, but is as handy a guide as I've found for a five-word summary of a whole lot of other builders. Worth keeping a link handy when you do start to go look at boats a year or three from now: Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

[robert sailor]

I guess the real answer is whatever works for you. Some cruisers are sailors first and cruisers second, they want a boat that will sail well iand point high n light conditions.
Other cruisers don't really care and choose their boats based on interior size and built in comforts, they just make sure they have lots of fuel and an engine that will motor well. If the winds are strong enough and they don't have to point high to get where they are going they are happy to sail.
So a person asks a sailor what is a good boat to buy and he/she will point you in the direction of a boat that is deep fin keel with a high sail area to weight ratio.
You ask a cruiser and they will point you to a boat that has the most room for overall length and probably a small sail area.
So you have to begin by asking yourself what your personal requirements are in a boat, is the compromise toward performance or is your compromise towards comfort and room.
Once you get yourself figured out then you can start looking at boats that are a better fit just for you.
There are of course many more things you need to consider but you need to start somewhere and work up. Its a fun process, you'll learn tons about boats and quite a bit about yourself.

[CatNewBee]

... Also consider, whatever you buy, it was propably a boat on the hard or dock queen for a decent time period, not equipped with the right stuff for off-grid liveaboard and work on board.

So at least add another 20...30k for upgrading the electric system (batteries, inverters, solar, (wind?) gen, watermaker, wifi or 4G booster, usb outlets for your gadgets, 12V power supplys for your computers...).

Also a new matresses, toilet seats... to make her your own, if you live on a 30kg backpack, you may need some basics too, like blankets, cushions, dishes and galley stuff, pots and pans, small stuff on a household, but a lot of things add up quickly. You build a new home and fit out your first flat, it is different to living in hotels out of the backpack.

[Kian]

Thanks everyone for your replies. It seems to me that there is a bit of a split between American and European markets, right?

Since I can travel, I've mostly been doing searches "worldwide". After all, if I see a bunch of interesting offers in a given country I can just pack up and spend a month looking at the ships there. And that seems to have biased my results.

I've also been setting my searches for ships built after 2000. The American market seems to favor older ships though? I see ships from the 1970s and 80s if I look over there. Are those models still being built though? Are the boatyards still in operation? Was there a mass extinction of boatyards in the US in the 90s?

Or am I just setting my price range too low so I only see the older boats?

[Kian]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

So at least add another 20...30k for upgrading the electric system (batteries, inverters, solar, (wind?) gen, watermaker, wifi or 4G booster, usb outlets for your gadgets, 12V power supplys for your computers...).

That's a great point and I've been thinking about it but I haven't sat down to do the hard research yet. For work purposes I would need an electric system that can run a beefy a computer for hours in addition to all the other electronics. In the short term I figured I'd stay most of the time at marinas connected to shore power for work, and disconnect when I want to move. Have to budget for the cost of the marinas, but that's also very variable depending on location. And would encourage a smaller boat, as I understand they charge you based on the length of the boat.

[Pizzazz]

Kian, I had the same question when I started boating. The truth is while the quality differs between manufacturers and years of manufacture, most boats post 1970 are built well enough. Well enough means that the chance of a catastrophic failure is very small. Hence most of them still sail and give their owners significant enjoyment.

If you compare to cars, the mass produced boats are Beneteau/Jeanneau/Bavaria in Europe and Hunter/Catalina in the US. The volume of these boats is an order of magnitude higher than the higher end boats such as Halberg-Rassy, Amel, Moody, etc. The higher end boats are better build, have better joinery and depreciate slower. However, the difference is much smaller than, say between a Mercedes and a Renault. A Mercedes will ride better and smoother every day, will be faster and more comfortable every day. With boats, it is different. The majority of the time (97%) the boats sail in light winds (10-15 knots) and the mass produced boats are just as comfortable as the the higher-end boats. They are lighter, faster, have more light and more space. This is why they sell so well, they are cheaper and give you a great experience on the water. When the sea and the winds become unfavorable, the mass produced boats suffer. The ride quality is not good, they squeak, they heel too much and often become dangerous to handle in strong winds. They will likely not sink but the experience will be less pleasant (not to mention scary) than a proper, quality ocean going boat.

Some people sail in any tipe of weather and then need quality boats and are willing to pay for them. Others, overestimate how often bad weather occurs and prefer the perceived safety of an ocean going boat (HR, Amel, Tartan in the US). The majority of us have production boats, enjoy the space, light and ease of use and just exercise some prudence when going to sea in bad weather.

Another factor is newer vs. older boats. A lot of the older production boats have teak or mahogany interiors that age pretty well. The newer production boats have Ikea type interiors that look fresh in the first couple of years but then deteriorate very fast afterwards. Some people consider this a big factor that detracts from the enjoyment of the boat.

As others have said, the best advice is to go around a few boats and choose a few features that are important to you. For example, in my case I cared about teak, space, a deck stepped mast (to have more open space) and enough headroom/sleeping space for a tall guy like me. Later, as I got to know my boat I came to appreciate factors such as a good PHRF rating (speed), lines led back to cockpit (ease of use). Many of these additional features you will get accustomed to and get to like with time. What is hard to grow on you with time is the initial feeling when you get on board - do you like the layout, do you like the light, etc. Just follow your heart, it is hard for anyone to give you a recommendation on that.

SV Pizzazz

[ThaidUp]

Not an expert at all, disclaimer now completed. I'd have to go back to see what size range you are considering, but this advice applies regardless. Most boaters start with a budget, then figure out what's the biggest boat they can reasonably afford, then figure out what year range makes sense. My advice is actually to find the smallest boat that will meet your needs, then the budget and age questions will more easily fall into place. True, 40+ footers generally have bigger tankage than 36-38 footers. But, maybe you have a water maker. Maybe you don't need 400 liters of diesel (it does go bad if unused). The initial cost of a 36-38 footer is lower, the maintenance cost is lower; things weigh less; they are just easier. Not to mention docking fees, bridge clearance, draft, and other size-related advantages. There are some great sailing, suitable live-a-board 36-38 footers out there.