Brand Comparison

[Kian]

Hello, I'm new here, been reading for a while and greatly appreciate how knowledgeable the community is. I'm hoping you can help me with my research as I try to decide on my first boat.

So first, some background about me. I'm a software developer, I work remotely and for the past couple of years I've been living the "digital nomad" lifestyle. That means I travel around (always to places with reliable internet), rent rooms or small apartments through Airbnb and the like, stay a month or two in a place, then move on. Air travel and rent are my largest expenses, which limit how much I move around. Still, I'm frugal and have saved a fair bit.

I've been debating whether to settle down, and more importantly where, for some time and haven't really made much progress. Still, having to live with what airlines let you carry and move everything you own around every couple of months is kind of limiting. Everything I own weighs in at about 30 kg, and I can't have anything that won't fit in a suitcase. So I can't but souvenirs, for example, which is sometimes disappointing if I find something cool.

I have an acquaintance that works as crew on a ship, met up with them, went cruising for a bit, and I got interested in sailing. I figure living in a cruiser would be a good fit for me (an upgrade compared to my current living conditions), and I've started taking steps towards making it happen.

As part of that, I booked the RYA courses for Competent Crew and Day Skipper, did the theory course, been watching videos and reading, etc. My plan was to get experience, charter a few boats for weekend outings, get to know a bunch of different ships and talk to people at marinas, and then start thinking about purchasing a boat. And then a worldwide pandemic threw a wrench in my plans and I'm stuck in a small apartment, practicing knots and looking at boat listings.

I still mean to follow the plan once travel restrictions ease up and I can actually get back in the water. It's not like I can go look at boats at this time. But I figured I'd try to do research with all this free time I have, and you guys are the only people I can talk to about it.

My main concern right now is getting to know the landscape. I've been looking at different sites, and the manufacturers that seem to dominate (in number of listings, I mean) are Jeanneau, Benetau, and Bavaria. However, when reading sites like this, other brands come up much more often, like Amel, HR, Moody, or well, any of the boats you can see named in this forum.

I was wondering why is there such a disparity. If they sell more, I'd expect them to also be talked about more. But it doesn't seem to be the case. So could someone clue me in as to how different manufacturers compare to each other?

Also, what should I set my eye on? I mean, Rolls Royce makes great cars, but I wouldn't be buying one if I want a car for my daily commute.

In terms of requirements, what I've been considering is something in the 50 to 100k USD range (I can put down that much and still have savings for several years of unemployment, but I wouldn't be comfortable going too far beyond that). In terms of size, I went to a boat show to see the boats and 12 m (40 ft) would be the lower end of what I'd be comfortable with.

Would have to be something that can be single-handed (picking up crew for longer passages), and at the start at least I will mostly be doing coastal passages around Europe (Med and up to the North Sea), but if I could cross over the Atlantic to visit family and friends in the US that would be nice. I'd rather not have to trade boats to leave.

Also, I don't want to do a restoration project, or be stuck with repairs for years. I'd want something that is in good enough condition that after the survey I would put in up to about 10% of the list price in new parts and repairs and be able to sail in a month or two.

So given that, any recommendation of things I should be looking at, or staying away from? What a realistic budget would be? And yes, I understand that I'm in the very first stages of what is a long process. But I'm stuck at home and won't be able to get close to a boat for weeks, so I might as well daydream about the boat I will eventually buy.

[CatNewBee]

I would suggest, go to a boat show first and check out the yachts in your price range and size, even an unexperienced eye can see the differences of mass production yachts and small but expensive high quality boat builders.

You will quickly learn, that even brand new boats need shake down cruises and month until all issues were addressed. So boat projects are something you will face at some point.

Also you will see in what price range a decent outfitted production boat (for charter, not liveaboard) would cost and then compare your budget to it.

What you will learn is, to make compromises, to value old preowned boats and also get a feeling why it is expensive to maintain and refit one. Check a chandler on the boat show and look at prices for boat parts.

Then comes the fun part. Get online and look for boats, conditions and prices. At some point you will find what you are looking for and you will acclimatize to the idea, that boat works is part of cruising. You either DIY or you pay someone to do it for you. As I read your post, you want to save money, then you need to invest ellbow greese. The smaller the boat, the cheaper the parts and the less effort needed.

A 40ft sail boat is quite big and it comes at a price. 10% of the boat price for maintenance and repairs means, essential system will be replaced within 10 years if you do nothing, what is pretty common, some parts live longer, but this because of maintenance, and you spend on it all the time.

You can use and abuse your boat for a couple of years and then make a big refit or you can keep it in good shape by maintenance.

Bottomline, the sea eats boats, and boat ownership cost money and work, for many people it is worth it. You can spent the money on worse things.

[CatNewBee]

Regarding brands, it is pretty simple. Boat market is pretty small, regardless of the boat brand, all european production vessel use the same parts, ropes, engines, winches and deck hardware, galley ovens, cooktops, generators, switch panels electronics.

There is Harken, Lewmar, Quick for winches and windlasses and deck hardware, Volvo and Yanmar for engines, Fischer Panda and Onan for generators, Mastervolt and Victron for electric systems, Raymarine, B&G and Garmin for electronics. Allmost all production boats are GRP, often cored (balsa or foam) heads are from Jabsco, fridges, freezer, A/C from dometic and so on. It really does not matter at all what brand boat you buy.

Other boat builder regions use some other brands

[Snore]

I do NOT want to sound rude- but your question is akin to asking "what is the best car?"

Lets start with the basics- how will the boat be used? Day sailing on a lake? Protected waters? Circumnavigation? Purchasing a boat that can do a circumnavigation to sail on a lake is a waste of money. The reverse can be lethal.

Next- all boats use the same winches, etc- that should not be the driver in your decision. What is worth learning about and looking at is how are the winches and stanchions mounted? Things like tabbing, robustness of rudder assemblies, handholds, hardwood versus veneers or laminates.

Right about now you are likely asking "what the @@@ is he talking about?" That is the point of my post. To really understand the difference between a Beneteau and a Jenneau requires some research. To understand why a Tartan or Sabre costs so much more than a Beneteau requires you to understand the differences in construction. Me? I own a 40 year old Tartan that makes less noise in a seaway than some 5 year old boats.

How best to learn this? Take your courses and try to take each on a different boat. Beg your way onto a higher end boat. You will see that a 5 year old high-end boat is probably in as good a shape as a new lower-end boat.

But as I started- it begins with you defining how the boat will be used.

[a64pilot]

The difference is build quality and materials in the boat itself, plus some things like rigging size and winches etc.
However an Amel or Oyster and a Bene will both have the same Yanmar engine and possibly Lewmar winches etc.
In the top of your budget you can get a “good” boat, but it’s going out be an older one, in my opinion a good 40’ boat is just about right for a couple, yes I could always use more room, but suspect that would be true if we were on a 50’ boat too.
40ish foot boats seem to be the most plentiful and therefore in my opinion you are more likely to get a good buy in one, above 40’ again in my opinion but to single hand you want / need lots of more expensive “stuff” like electric winches and bow thrusters.

However you need to really do some thinking about exactly what it is you want to do with this boat, for example I have a friend with an Amel Super Maramu, an outstanding boat, likely one of the best round the world cruising boats in existence, but it’s draft both air and water extremely limited where it can go, it’s not as good as say my Island Packet for running up and down the ICW and over to the Bahamas etc, it’s an ocean crossing boat, and in that use I’m sure it would be far superior to my IP.

So depending on what it is exactly you want to do, maybe a Morgan Out island 41 is the boat for you, or unlikely, but maybe an HR is.

[CatNewBee]

All true. What I was trying to say, maintenance of a expensive custom or cheap production boat cost almost the same for the parts, same stuff inside, same engines, same filters, same electronics.

The difference is the craftmanship involved and the materials used inside and outside. Some high end teak deck costs as much as a production boat.

The rigging sizes are comparable for the same size boats. Of course there are exotic carbon fiber mast and sails and fancy furlings, that add up.

But 40..100k budget is not that segment I guess

[dougweibel]

Good advice given so far. I think the area you could broaden your thinking is allowing more than 10% of the purchase price for immediate repairs and upgrades. You may find a great boat that needs 30% of the purchase price in repairs or upgrades. That amount of work, depending on what it is, may easily be done in a month or two. I'd recommend looking with an eye towards what a boat could be in 60 days with some total amount of investment (purchase price, repairs, upgrades).

You may find a boat that is actually ready to go, but limiting your search that way you may miss a better opportunity.

[Kian]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

You will quickly learn, that even brand new boats need shake down cruises and month until all issues were addressed. So boat projects are something you will face at some point.

Ah, I'm well aware of that. My acquaintance often complained about all the problems the ships they were in, some of which were custom made, new boats, had.

I should clarify, what I meant was that I don't want to buy a boat that will need a year of work between purchase and sailing away from the point of sale. Same with the 10% figure, that's just expected extra on top of buying it. Don't want to spend 50k to get the boat, then another 50k to get it in the water.

Once I own it, I'll stick to a reasonable maintenance schedule and fix whatever needs fixing on an ongoing basis, doing as much of the work myself as possible. Willing to learn whatever is necessary to keep the ship in good shape, buy replacements for what needs replacement from wear and tear, etc. I just don't want that to be front loaded, and not sure if that's a reasonable expectation within my budget.

Originally Posted by Snore

I do NOT want to sound rude- but your question is akin to asking "what is the best car?"

I did not mean it like that. More like, "what segments does each manufacturer target?" Like, Ferrari and Lamborghini target the exotic luxury performance market, you don't expect their cars to be in the street in a major city. Rolls Royce is ostentatious luxury and style. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, aim to be at the top end of the mainstream market (depending a bit on region). Ford, Chrysler, and Japanese brands generally target mainstream utility markets. And so on.

So, based on what segment the brand targets, you can tell whether you are in their target demographic, and what other people in your demographic are buying, which can give you an idea of what you should be looking at. Obviously no one perfectly matches what the marketing department of these brands are aiming at, but for someone new to the scene it can serve as a guidepost to get a feel for what's available.

Lets start with the basics- how will the boat be used? Day sailing on a lake? Protected waters? Circumnavigation? Purchasing a boat that can do a circumnavigation to sail on a lake is a waste of money. The reverse can be lethal.

I mentioned this towards the end of the post, but I realize it was already getting quite long.

My goal is coastal passages, living at anchor or spending short periods in marinas, and sailing around the coast of Europe within the Med and out up to the North Sea. Eventually do an Atlantic crossing, to visit family, but I'm willing (though not enthusiastic) to get a new boat once I'm more experienced before doing that. I can always put the boat away for a month and take a plane after all.

To really understand the difference between a Beneteau and a Jenneau requires some research.

Granted, I don't expect to be fed the answers, but a high-level overview of what each brand does (or even, where to find the prices for new boats, it's not like they advertise it clearly from what I've seen) would be helpful.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So depending on what it is exactly you want to do, maybe a Morgan Out island 41 is the boat for you, or unlikely, but maybe an HR is.

Well, the boat is going to be my house, and I like moving around, so I'd like it to be versatile. I understand that boats are compromises, in which case I'd rather be stuck on coastal waters and unable to sail up a river, than able to sail up a river but stuck in one side of the ocean.

In any case, I'm not in a hurry to pick a specific model. Already I've learned some valuable info though. Hadn't considered that aside of the construction of the hull, the equipment on the boat was mostly limited to a handful of brands. That's a bit of a relief, means there are fewer mistakes you can make.

[Kian]

Originally Posted by dougweibel

I'd recommend looking with an eye towards what a boat could be in 60 days with some total amount of investment (purchase price, repairs, upgrades).

You may find a boat that is actually ready to go, but limiting your search that way you may miss a better opportunity.

That's good advice and I will keep it in mind. I guess the question is, is my budget reasonable for that, or do I need to adjust my expectations? Which would mean either increasing the budget, or expecting to spend more time fixing the boat.

[Kian]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

But 40..100k budget is not that segment I guess

Haha, no. I'm not planning on winning regattas, or setting speed records Not
on my first boat, anyway.

[dougweibel]

Originally Posted by Kian

That's good advice and I will keep it in mind. I guess the question is, is my budget reasonable for that, or do I need to adjust my expectations? Which would mean either increasing the budget, or expecting to spend more time fixing the boat.

As always the various considerations, including budget, generally work against each other. All thing equal you will get a better deal if you find boat to purchase which was recently upgraded by the previous owner rather than finding a boat needing upgrades and paying for those. The only caveat there is if the upgrades are labor intensive and you do them yourself, which doesn't sound like your thing. Still, you occasionally find an opportunity on a fixer upper which either is a real deal or which will allow you to get started with the budget you have and maybe defer some things till your kitty is rebuilt a bit later.

[nwdiver]

You will not get a 40ft sail off into the sunset boat for 50-100k, might find a nice 37 ft for 50k then 50k more will make it worth 5-10k more (55-60k)........so unless you are planning on keeping it for 10 years don’t expect much of what you put into it to come back out in 2-3 years when you want to sell.

Your think you need 40ft, but will only have the cash to buy a nice 32-34 foot boat, give your head a shake and wake up....it’s all a dream.....

[a64pilot]

Many of the “higher end” boats are more performance boats and while I’m sure many will disagree, they aren’t as good for living in as some boats that are more meant for that.
Using as an example an HR, from my understanding a very good sailing boat, but with a nearly 7 ft draft they are limited to of course 7ft deep water, and they are optimized for sailing performance, not so much for comfort.

To use your Lambo example, it’s optimized for performance and may not be the best pick for a car for a long US Interstate trip, but great for track day.
Not trying to talk you into an O/I 41 as they may be rare in Europe, but they only draw 4.5” and have plenty of space, but I doubt that anyone would say they are a great sailing boat, but they can be had inexpensively and are very comfortable for knocking around Coastal and living aboard.
Many, many go for performance first and foremost, and that’s absolutely great for a boat you day sail or occasionally may take a short vacation on, but if your living on a boat 365 days a year, maybe you ought to place a LOT of emphasis on how comfortable it is to live on, if it has lots of room and doesn’t roll as much in an anchorage.

But location is very important too, where I live and travel, a short stick, shallow draft and lot and lots of ventilation is very important, as well as a design that will take hard groundings without concern of damage.
Where many live a 10 ft draft is no issue at all, shallow water is water less than 50’ deep. Plus it’s cold most of the year and Diesel heat is more important than ventilation.

[Jim Cate]

Lots of opinions above, here are a couple of comments based on mine!

1. For the proposed venues, a 7 foot draft is not a problem. This is true in most cruising grounds of the world... the Florida/Bahama circuit is an outlier.

2. While it is true that new boats of common marques have equipment supplied by the same manufacturers, there is a disparity in the sizes of the equipment fitted and often in the quantity (ie, number of winches, etc). Further, most hardware lines have several levels of quality, and the lower end boats tend to fit the lower end hardware, and it does make a difference in both performance and durability.

3. Most of the mass production boats have designs driven by accommodating larger crews, as in the charter trade, and while this has its benefits, they are not at all optimized for a solo sailor.

4. IMO, going to boat shows and viewing new vessels is a waste of your time and money. Your budget most certainly precludes buying a new or even nearly new boat of the size you desire. I'd say spend the time and travel money looking at a large number of used boats that you might possibly end up buying. Getting a feel for the tradeoffs between price and condition is important, and only personally visiting the boats will generate that understanding.

5. Finally, again IMO, when considering boats in your price range, the condition of the particular vessel in question is more important than the marque. A good example of a Bavaria, for instance, might well be a better fit for you than a poor example of a Halberg Rassey. And remember, for your proposed use, just about any of the marques in question will be adequate IF they are in good nick!

Good hunting!

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Many of the “higher end” boats are more performance boats and while I’m sure many will disagree, they aren’t as good for living in as some boats that are more meant for that.
Using as an example an HR, from my understanding a very good sailing boat, but with a nearly 7 ft draft they are limited to of course 7ft deep water, and they are optimized for sailing performance, not so much for comfort.

To use your Lambo example, it’s optimized for performance and may not be the best pick for a car for a long US Interstate trip, but great for track day.
Not trying to talk you into an O/I 41 as they may be rare in Europe, but they only draw 4.5” and have plenty of space, but I doubt that anyone would say they are a great sailing boat, but they can be had inexpensively and are very comfortable for knocking around Coastal and living aboard.
Many, many go for performance first and foremost, and that’s absolutely great for a boat you day sail or occasionally may take a short vacation on, but if your living on a boat 365 days a year, maybe you ought to place a LOT of emphasis on how comfortable it is to live on, if it has lots of room and doesn’t roll as much in an anchorage.

But location is very important too, where I live and travel, a short stick, shallow draft and lot and lots of ventilation is very important, as well as a design that will take hard groundings without concern of damage.
Where many live a 10 ft draft is no issue at all, shallow water is water less than 50’ deep. Plus it’s cold most of the year and Diesel heat is more important than ventilation.

No offense but your views are limited to the boats you've sailed and your sailing grounds.

Eg, the Bahamas and florida dont represent the whole world by far, an extra foot or two of draft makes no difference in 99% of the world.

Also performance dosent equal lack of comfort, quite often that extra knot results in more comfort or a day or two less at sea, the noise of the motor gone because you sail more.

A full keel and heavy displacement dosent always equal comfort, naval architecture has moved on, you can have reasonable performance and comfort. The Europeans are light years ahead of Americans in this area, you see very few Europeans buying slow old heavy boats and I dont hear them claiming they are uncomfortable while sailing around the world.