Broker and owner withhold information.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Lake-
Even in states that provide for salvage titles, insurers don't always bother with processing them. In theory if they total the boat, they take the title from you (you have to sign it over, they have to process it and file it) and then the "salvage" title haunts it forever. But sometimes they'll agree to sell it back to the owner, who thinks they can surely fix it up for less...and a busy insurer skips the paperwork because that can save them $100 and a couple of weeks to clear the case. And more time to assign the salvage title paperwork over to the salvage buyer, can't do that until the new title has arrived, could be another month delay. And I suspect that some states don't have salvage titles, the same way they miss flood and salvage titles on cars.
I'd heard that insurers had or were pooling to keep their own shared database to make sure they didn't have to depend on lax states for that, dunno for sure.

Thanks for the detailed response. Do you know if this or similar could happen in the BVI with the 'Irma' boats?

[CarinaPDX]

Clearly the OP should walk away. My guess is that the cost to repair could actually exceed the cost of buying new. In any event the current value is probably negative: it is a money sink. There are continuing yard costs, and probably dismantling costs when all is said and done. I suppose the yard it is in now would love to have a buyer pay them to rebuild the boat, but it is unlikely that would be a good idea.

My suspicion is that the OP is just attracted to the idea of getting a large boat for such a little price. TANSTAAFL. This is not a bargain. There are a lot of real bargains right now, particularly in older boats, which is why doing major repairs on an older boat makes no sense.

Greg

[Flybird]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Any chance of finding what the current owner paid at auction?

The current owner paied 19.001 $ on auction.

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Clearly the OP should walk away. My guess is that the cost to repair could actually exceed the cost of buying new. In any event the current value is probably negative: it is a money sink. There are continuing yard costs, and probably dismantling costs when all is said and done. I suppose the yard it is in now would love to have a buyer pay them to rebuild the boat, but it is unlikely that would be a good idea.

My suspicion is that the OP is just attracted to the idea of getting a large boat for such a little price. TANSTAAFL. This is not a bargain. There are a lot of real bargains right now, particularly in older boats, which is why doing major repairs on an older boat makes no sense.

Greg

Yes, I am attracted to that idea. Mainly because I am not a rich man, so it might be the only way I can afford a boat that suits my demands.
I am a craftsman with skill and time, not an alu welder though, and my boat does not need to look perfect. It just needs to function, and I think that can be done with a boat like this, for a fraction of what it would cost if it was done ”by the book”. I would make all the preparations, so I would only need a pro welder to weld. And I think it is very likely that the masts and rig can be reused.
Does that sound completely unrealistic?

The yard costs I can cope with for quite some time. Actually it is probably not the most expensive way to stay in BVI for several months.

But, these real bargain you talk about, I dont seem to find them. Where are they?
Im looking for a metal sailboat, preferably 60+ feet.

[wtmf]

supreme court decessions
feil v FTC says IF there is a likelihood of misunderstanding you are guilty, and In tweel v US to remain silent is consistent with FRAUD.
I would use ALL social media to tell the truth about this boat.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Flybird

The current owner paied 19.001 $ on auction.

Yes, I am attracted to that idea. Mainly because I am not a rich man, so it might be the only way I can afford a boat that suits my demands.
I am a craftsman with skill and time, not an alu welder though, and my boat does not need to look perfect. It just needs to function, and I think that can be done with a boat like this, for a fraction of what it would cost if it was done ”by the book”. I would make all the preparations, so I would only need a pro welder to weld. And I think it is very likely that the masts and rig can be reused.
Does that sound completely unrealistic?

The yard costs I can cope with for quite some time. Actually it is probably not the most expensive way to stay in BVI for several months.

But, these real bargain you talk about, I dont seem to find them. Where are they?
Im looking for a metal sailboat, preferably 60+ feet.

IF you were to find such a boat... how much are you willing to spend to make it seaworthy?

If the boat was forcibly dismasted - eg they fell over - the masts will probably be unusable.

It's not impossible to find a bargoon, or to be able to restore a wreck with just skill and cheap materials... but the marinas and boatyards of the world are littered with such dreams, abandoned.

Why won't you consider a smaller boat in better condition to start with?

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Flybird

...In my opinion it is very unfair and very unethical, and probably also illegal, to withhold such information. But what can I do about it?

You can't fix the world. Grow up and move on.

Or you could be that nasty little first grader who was always telling the teacher what she already knew was going on...

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Flybird

Yes, I am attracted to that idea. Mainly because I am not a rich man, so it might be the only way I can afford a boat that suits my demands.

@Flybird: You didn't say anything about your experience level; it seems likely that you have very little cruising experience. Pay attention to the boat sizes of the posters on the forum: very few have anything approaching 70 feet. Even cruisers that can afford to buy a 70 footer rarely do - it is just too much boat. Whatever your "demands" are it is unlikely you require such a boat or will be able to afford the ongoing costs, assuming you could rebuild her. I would be interested in knowing what your "demands" are that could not be met with a 40-45 foot vessel.

Also, keep in mind that if you were to buy this wreck you would acquire the obligation to dismantle and remove it if you couldn't get her operational (highly likely outcome), unless you could find someone willing to take her off your hands. Consider that right now the owner that got it for nothing is in this place and is desperate to avoid those costs, or will be soon as he realizes his liability and the difficulty in finding a sucker to take it off his hands. Don't be that sucker...

Greg

[boatpoker]

Go for it. Let us know how you make out. .....sometines you can just smell it coming.
Unsubscribed.

[valhalla360]

Either walk away or...

Assume everything you found is still in bad shape and there is at least as many other things not listed that are wrong. Now calculate how much you think it will cost to repair...then triple it and you might be close to the real cost to repair everything.

[Flybird]

Originally Posted by billknny

You can't fix the world. Grow up and move on.

Or you could be that nasty little first grader who was always telling the teacher what she already knew was going on...

That was neither a wise, nor a pleasant comment.
Thankfully not all people think like you.

[Lihuedooley77]

We keep life pretty easy and do not beat ourselves up over anything.

We would not be stressing out over this damaged vessel. We would walk away.

When something is not right in the first place, the situation is not gong to get better.
It is only going to get worse.

We would not try to get something for nothing, but put our efforts into finding a vessel that has been well maintained . Thar aint no free lunch. And, that task is not easy.

Also, we do not believe 'most' boat owners, or brokers .

We would not waste our time and effort belaboring purchasing an un-seaworthy vessel.
Best plan is to get down the road.

We would put our effort into finding a well maintained used boat, or buy a new one. And, yes, both of those will cost more money . That is real life.

Most older boats that we have inspected are not in good shape, and the owners , when you point out what the problems are, deny what is right in front of them.

It will take effort and excellent personal inspections and surveys to find a suitable vessel. That is the sad fact on buying used boats, let alone anything that has been ravaged by a Category five hurricane , winds 180 to 220 mph, and the accompanying ocean conditions, waves, and grounding, and piling up on top of each other, and resulting damage.

The broker and the owner do not care what you think, so get on down the line. Find a well maintained boat and pay the freight . And then be prepared to pay to keep that vessel maintained .

Ah , lad, the task ahead is daunting, but not impossible . Good fortune to attaining your dream.

[boatman61]

The seller and his broker are under zero obligation to provide you with any info about the boat other than what its constructed of and any equipment included in the sale.. motor, sails etc.
Any survey he has paid for is his property to hold or release as he, not you, chooses.
You want more specifics You hire a surveyor.

[Bawlmer]

Ans why are you even thinking about buying this boat? Run! Don't walk.

[windshadowthree]

Originally Posted by skipmac

As a former yacht broker and I feel, a person with a strong sense of ethics, I resent that remark.

I agree. I see this sort of comment often in several forums. Like all trades, some are good, some are bad, but it is wrong to tarnish them all as bad. I know several brokers that I consider to be very ethical.

[skipmac]

Since this thread has persisted and I had some spare time this a.m. I decided to read through the survey. Also FYI I was onboard and inspected (not surveyed) the boat for a client when it was listed in Ft Lauderdale back in the 1980s. It was a spectacular boat with some very interesting features, in particular the fully lifting keel that would allow the beaching the boat.

However, if the survey is anywhere close to correct the costs to make this boat serviceable again will be very, very costly. Just a partial list. Also take note, that from all reports there are still dozens and dozens of wrecked boats in the islands and all available repair facilities are backed up for the foreseeable future.

- Extensive welding will be required and welding aluminum is NOT a job for an amateur. Not my area of expertise but as a rough guess the cost would be north of $10,000, possibly a lot more.

- Both masts and booms gone. Just to replace the standing rigging would be $10,000 or more. New roller furling for the jibs another $10,000. IF you could find used masts to fit and got a real deal maybe $20,000 but could be double that.

- Interior wet, wrecked and soaked with diesel. You will NEVER get the diesel smell out of the plywood flooring. Plus it sounds like a lot of it is broken, crushed, moldy and likely delaminating. The interior would probably have to be gutted down to the bare hull. Even DIY replacement would costs many thousands in marine grade or at least exterior grade ply, other wood and materials. Even for a very accomplished woodworker with a full shop and some help this by itself could take a year.

- Along with the wet wood inside the wiring must also have been soaked and an extensive if not complete rewiring job required. Figure a few thousand just to purchase the wire.

- The listing claims all the boat's gear and equipment was onboard and if not available must be replaced by the yard. Bull Stuff!! That boat has been stripped of everything worth more that $5.00 and you will not see a dime out of the yard to replace it.

- Engine. Not mentioned in the survey but almost certainly filled with water and time for a complete overhaul if not replacement. DIY engine rebuild if the crank, pistons/rods, etc are usable would be a few thousand. New or rebuilt engine for a boat this size min $15k for a used engine, $30-$40k for new.

Just looking at the big ticket items I can see costs for materials, parts, professional repairs (like the welding) and, yard bills headed towards $100,000. This is advise from someone that has undertaken two major refits (though nothing nearly as extensive as this) so been there, done that.