Bruce Roberts offer too good?

[Wand]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch

Hello:

I've come across a Bruce Roberts steel hull ketch. It's a 57 footer, launched in 88'....I know it's not a starter boat ...

It's good that you know it's not a starter boat; in fact, it's not an appropriate boat for almost all sailing folk. Boats that size are (generally) only good for liveaboards and for those with deep pockets who hire staff to maintain it and crew to sail it.

So unless you fit into either of those categories, my advice is to enjoy the view but don't touch.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Notyet

Hutch, look to the pictures of the boat on the hard...

Where did you see pictures?

[hpeer]

If I were looking right now, and I'm not, this would tempt me, a lot. Seems about in the same range as your above reference.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1728&url=

[Sailor_Hutch]

Wow! I've landed on an invaluable resource here, with many interesting, informative comments to my neophyte question.


ZeeHag: Thanks for the comment. Yes - the problem with steelies was exactly described to me by the insurance company. They said that they couldn't even begin to give out a quote for insuring a Bruce Roberts steel boat without a qualified survey and an engineering report. The main reason they gave was that many Bruce Roberts boats were built in the back yard - and that my particular one was made of steel.


Matt Sachs: Thanks. I see no overlap that's obvious to my untrained eyes. However - it's easy to conceptualize the overlap to be a rust problem. I would imagine pinholes and welding defects would exagerate it.


DenverdOn: Ref your statement about the backyard build. Yep - exactly what the insurance company said.


barnakiel: I agree that MANY things look good in pictures.


OZSkipper: Yep - the insurance company said get both a survey and an engineer, with the surveyor being on an approved list.


S/V Alchemy: Thanks for the '4 of 5' are junk 'rule of thumb.' Always nice to have a bench reference!


hpeer: I'm not close to FLA, but I like the idea of going to the boneyard for a sample ping test!


Wand: Yep, I'm crazy to start too big. Getting too old to do it the normal, non-crazy way. It would be a liveaboard, and I would hire somebody smarter than myself to sail it for six months or something ...

Eventually - I want to take it to South Pacific. That's part of the steel reasoning - weather, coral heads, etc...

Thanks to All. Great crew here! (I'm throwing around all that nautical stuff now)

- Hutch

[Mimsy]

Just to play Devils' advocate, you do realize that probably 90% of private sailing yachts in the South Pacific are fiberglass, right?

Personally, I've had 4 friends with steel boats who have been happy but they were very experienced and were truly steel aficionados- everyone of the these boats are owned by engineers who are all type A perfectionist types who enjoy maintaining their boats as much as sailing them. They also have deep pockets.

If you are looking for a boat to go cruising and you aren't a specialist in steel construction wouldn't it make better sense to look into the fiberglass market? Lots more of well found boats in that material and as to handling weather, I would much rather deal with nasty weather in a well maintained fiberglass boat that sails well than a steel boat of unknown quality.As to coral heads, my plan on my fiberglass boat is to not hit them.

Just something to consider as you begin your search. Not saying I would never own a steel boat, just that I would really think hard about what you get for your money.

[Sailor_Hutch]

Mimsy: I might lean towards the type A on occasion, except when I'm a slacker. I know about the fiberglass domination, especially in warm water. Well, some of the places I'll be headed in SP are well known for uncharted coral. That really is a closet demon for me.

I've heard that a glass boat that's been through a coupla really big blows gets "sloppy" in the hull, and subsequent stress on the rigging can cause dismasting. What do you think about this idea??

- Hutch

[S/V Alchemy]

Hutch, I encourage your to validate my comments and opinions personally, as well as the others you've read.

I haven't seen much I disagree with, however. I chose steel with eyes wide open and what I couldn't figure out for myself, I paid good money to have surveyed.

I believe I made the right choice for someone looking to sail to remote anchorages with perhaps the option of doing high-latitude sailing. There's a reason most "expedition yachts" are metal, and not fibreglass, just as there's a reason most liveaboards or tropical boats are fibreglass and not metal. If you know the care and feeding issues, you are good to go. Me, I wouldn't choose metal for a liveaboard, unless I was simply just buying a damn big boat that would rarely move. If that's the case, you might as well just get a ferro.

But the "uncharted coral" aspect is why we chose steel (and steel collision bulkheads with pluggable limber holes and sumps and pumps and learning how to weld plate, oh, my...).

Steel gives you a second chance fibreglass sometimes does not. That second chance is bought with vigilance, galvanizing paint and two-part topcoat work.

Aluminum boats are perhaps best, but the electrical considerations are vast and I would have restless nights wondering if an old penny had dropped down the bilge. Besides, you rarely find a cheap, aluminum boat, because it's a lot harder to properly weld. Amateurs (like me) can carry plate, careen the boat or haul out on jackstands and can do pretty decent fixes in remote places.

Fibreglass is quite variable, and if you've been on an F/G boat in a blow that was "oilcanning"...that's not a well-found boat if it's showing evidence of that kind of stress or detabbed bulkheads.

But it's really down to your own willingness to understand the pluses and minuses of the materials and your fastidiousness about maintenance. Steel isn't onerous to maintain, but you have to look deeper and not be a person who puts things off.

Good luck in the search. Fifty-seven feet is a damn big boat and the forces involved are significant. Sailing that massive a beast alone on watch would be my challenge, not whether it was steel or not. We chose 41 feet not because it was "big enough" (I wanted 45 for WL reasons), but because that's the max. size boat my small but strong wife can handle effectively. So you have to think "if we are on passage and I need to sleep for four hours, what's the biggest boat the weakest watchstander can handle up to 30 knots?"

All further decisions proceed from that baseline, unless you are moving aboard a family of lumberjacks.

[Mimsy]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch

Mimsy: I might lean towards the type A on occasion, except when I'm a slacker. I know about the fiberglass domination, especially in warm water. Well, some of the places I'll be headed in SP are well known for uncharted coral. That really is a closet demon for me.

I've heard that a glass boat that's been through a coupla really big blows gets "sloppy" in the hull, and subsequent stress on the rigging can cause dismasting. What do you think about this idea??

- Hutch

If your plans include more remote locations then I can see why you are leaning towards a steel hull,

As to the longevity of FG boats after enduring heavy weather I don't worry about it on our boat but there is a reason we purchased an older, heavier built boat rather than a newer production boat. We would have come out ahead financially had we purchased a newer boat and I certainly know of many production boats that are world cruisers but it was outside of MY comfort zone which is why we purchased as we did.

I never said you shouldn't go steel, just trying to ask questions so you can determine what is the best choice for you to make for yourself. I am not going to maintain or sail your boat so my opinion doesn't matter but I hope when you do come to your decision you feel like you considered all the angles.

[Sailor_Hutch]

S/V Alchemy: Ferro? LOL

I think you've used a good term for the vessel I'd be looking for, although mine might qualify better as an "occasional expedition" boat. In general, we are thinking alike on this issue.

I looked at some insurance company data on sunk boats. Seems that 4 of 5 boats sink in the slip due to weather or under-WL fittings. One case was cited as a "cracked generator intake hose." These boats typically sink when the owner is not around to fix the problem. The same report indicated that six percent of boats (that were under way) sank because they were physically broken apart in a blow, and ten percent sank when they hit underwater obstructions. The rest sank in the more traditional ways of taking on water in wicked weather ...

Unless you're the type of person to safe-cruise in mild, deep water all the time, I think - as you've written effectively - it's good to depend on the strength of metal.

Yet - I'm still malleable enough about this to be persuaded otherwise. I know that I know little ....

- Hutch

[Sailor_Hutch]

Mimsy: Please let me know what you think - no holds barred. I can tell by your blogspot that you've an acquired knowledge of things ... and I'm in sponge mode at this point ... looking for knowledge. BTW: Your little pirates are darling. I've four of my own - forever landlubbers though ...

[holmek]

I have yet to see a Bruce Roberts design that is pleasing to the eye. Who would want to own one, ? built in any material.! ?
That said, it's hard to imagine why anyone would prefer anything than infinitely repairable, minimal maint,fibreglass. C'mon guys, wood/aluminium/steel/coldmoulded/. Get with non-biodegradable sailing. !

[Mimsy]

Based on you wanting to sail to remote locations and your type A personality coupled with feeling more secure in a steel hull- I would get a steel boat if I could find one that had been well maintained. That is a big if. I would though, probably up my budget considerably.

The steel boats I have seen that I would own (again based on what I would own not what you SHOULD) have all been a bit more spendy than 100k- quite a bit more. Averaging around 50k more at 42 feet to 48 feet and needing work. Come to think of it, if I started wanting to buy a non FG boat over 200k, I'd probably start saving for an Ovni. Ok so not steel but not fiberglass either.

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to hull construction or boat design but what I am really good at is shopping. Boat shopping is shopping and whenever I make a big purchase I really question what my priorities are, how much value I put on those priorities, what are deal breakers and what I am getting for my money. With very few exceptions, this tack has served me well. This is why we ended up with a fiberglass boat- it came down to what we got for the money.

I would suggest going to see as many steel boats as you possibly can vowing NOT to fall in love with them. Ask the brokers a bunch of questions and I wouldn't hesitate to ask for records and receipts for all maintenance and upgrades. Talk to steel owners on the net and in person about their experiences and you will have more tools to help you make the right decision for you and your family.

If you have little kids, really thinklong and hard about if a Bruce Roberts is right for you. We looked at several different models and while the build quality varied on them, they all shared a love of tons of freeboard. That freeboard was put to good use in providing really tall berth heights which provide lots of storage space but make it really tough for a little kid to get around the boat. The BR cockpit designs and companionway steps would be tough on littles as well as for those with any sort of knee problems. Not something I would have expected to pick up after viewing a few models but it was a consistent theme. If your kids are older and over 5ft 3, this will be less of an issue.

[Mimsy]

Originally Posted by holmek

I have yet to see a Bruce Roberts design that is pleasing to the eye. Who would want to own one, ? built in any material.! ?
That said, it's hard to imagine why anyone would prefer anything than infinitely repairable, minimal maint,fibreglass. C'mon guys, wood/aluminium/steel/coldmoulded/. Get with non-biodegradable sailing. !

I have not seen a BR yet that made me think "wow what a pretty boat" in fact the opposite has been true this far but I have seen 2 examples I can think of that were so spectacularly built, systems planned out and maintained that their functionality made them beautiful. Still didn't buy one though.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Sailor_Hutch

I've heard that a glass boat that's been through a coupla really big blows gets "sloppy" in the hull...

WHAT!?! I've been a sailor for more than 30 years now and I've never heard anything like this. I think someone is pulling your leg.

Poorly made boats suffer problems and lose their rigging. Has absolutely nothing to do with what they're made of. There are lots of 30 and 40 year old fiberglass boats out there that have been through the most severe weather that Mother Nature can cook up, and are still going strong.

No offense, but this comment sounds like someone who is actively looking for excuses not to buy a fiberglass boat. If you prefer steel, fine. Some people do. Just be aware of what you're getting into.

[Sailor_Hutch]

Poorly made boats suffer problems and lose their rigging. Has absolutely nothing to do with what they're made of. There are lots of 30 and 40 year old fiberglass boats out there that have been through the most severe weather that Mother Nature can cook up, and are still going strong.

I've heard all sorts of things about boats, both metal and FG varieties. Being the neophyte, I don't yet have the ability to sort boat-talk fact from fiction. Naturally, hearing an opinion is not the same as knowing that it has factual basis. That's why the FG statement was posited in combination with a question. Gotta figure all the angles though. If FG can weather the storm - I'm still left with the soft bottom issue, so for me I still lean towards steel. Not a hundred percent sure, to be sure.

I don't have a strong impulse to subject myself to the extra maintenance of a metal boat. For me the decision is mostly based on what will be safest and most functional for purpose.

- Hutch