Buying a boat with prior keel damage?

[Tspringer]

The seemingly never ending search for a good boat I can afford continues...

The latest installment - a 2001 Catalina 470 that was hurricane damaged in the BVI and repaired.

The boat was stored on the hard on Tortola when Irma hit. She was knocked off her stand by another boat and the keel was seriously tweaked. As in basically torn off the keel stub. the keel itself had 3 bolts/studs slightly bent and the keel stub on the hull was pretty much ripped apart- both by the fall and in the process of removing the keel for repairs.

I have a survey report on the repairs with lots of photos. Scary looking stuff. I have done my fair share of fiberglass work including some largish scale repairs but nothing on this level. Bottom line - I am honestly not qualified to judge the repair. If I wanted to purchase the boat, I would of course have a survey done but that doesn't mean the surveyor would be able to really tell if the repair is "as good as new"

The surveyor who provided a report on the repairs viewed the boat daily during the repairs being based at the same location. The meat of the report -

"A mould was taken from the original keel stub. A new moulded fiberglass keel stub was created to provide the bottom structure for the hull at the point where it meets the keel. This was made with alternating layers of chopped strand matt and biaxial cloth with epoxy resin. The new section was glassed to the hull with overlapping pieces of cloth to about 15” from the new mould.

The internal structure was repaired with chopped strand matt and Biaxial cloth with epoxy resin. The keel stub was also glassed into place on the interior with cloth and epoxy resin.

We identified three keel bolts which were slightly bent. These were straightened by BVI Marine Management to our satisfaction.

Holes were then bored in the keel stub and the keel mounted in place. The keel to hull join was then glassed over with cloth and resin, reinforcing the bond. "

This was clearly a huge repair. Was it really done right? How to tell?

Other than this the boat is very well setup and due to the repairs the price is pretty dang good.

Any experts who can chime on what to look for or means to telling if the repairs are as strong as new? I am happy to send the repair survey report to anyone qualified to provide an educated opinion.

Thanks,

Terry

[Fore and Aft]

As a surveyor two things concern me. Why straighten a bent keel bolt instead of replacing it? How did they straighten it? The second thing is epoxy and chop strand mat do not work together unless the chop strand matt has been powder bound? That’s just my thoughts.
Cheers

[Tspringer]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

As a surveyor two things concern me. Why straighten a bent keel bolt instead of replacing it? How did they straighten it? The second thing is epoxy and chop strand mat do not work together unless the chop strand matt has been powder bound? That’s just my thoughts.
Cheers

Interesting on the chop strand and epoxy issue - I learned something today!

The keel bolts are actually large studs that extend out the top of the keel - they are tied into a grid system that is encapsulated in the lead keel.

[NYSail]

Call Catalina.....

Good luck
Greg

[gmakhs]

1 issue , chopped strand mat with epoxy
2 issue , big repair with epoxy, epoxy cures harder than fiberglass so it's not recommended for big repairs because it creates hard spots .
3issue the major structural points of the boat have been weakened a lot since is not one chemical bond as it is from the mould but it depends on abrasion .
4Is the boat on sale for 10k ???? If yes buy it, if the boat is over 10k really why bother ?? There are other boats on the same size probably similar size with less damage .

Final conclusion :
Even if the surveyor says the truth and the repairs are good the structure strength have been compromised a d that something I would not like to live with .

P.S when you hit the ground and lose the keel or.in a bad storm the people who did the repair and the surveyors won't be there with you .

[Tillsbury]

If the engineer was watching, and the boat is half the price of other similar ones, then I would have thought it was well worth a look

[Chotu]

I would echo the same sentiments as the other people. Mat should not be used, I’d be a little leery of the straightened keel bolt, And potentially there might be a hard spot from the epoxy, but probably not a big deal considering the whole thing in that area should be extremely hard and strong anyway.

To picture why the straightening of a kill both could be problematic, take a wire coat hanger. Bend it really far. Then bend it back. Do you that a few times. You don’t have the same strength you started with.

When it comes to the mat in the layup, it is just a waste of a pox he. And it will provide no strength. Only the biaxial component provide the strength in that layup. And you need to know how many layers went on. And what the weight of the cloth was. Some pictures would be helpful for us. Also how the overlap was staggered.

[CarlF]

Was an insurance company paying for this and signing off on the repair? It might be interesting to ask them if they would insure the boat if you bought it. If they won't, I doubt anyone else will.

Catalina could tell you the layup spec of that keel stub. It wouldn't surprise me if they used layers of mat and cloth. Pretty standard for a production boat. Not elegant but Catalina keels have a pretty large mating surface that's not structurally very demanding compared to a real race boat.

[Fore and Aft]

What diameter are the keel bolts? 1 1/2 inch”? Would be interested in how they straightened them?
I cannot see any reason to buy this yacht, even if it is cheap. If they had replaced the keel bolts then I would see no issue. But to me it sounds like a cheap repair?
Cheers

[roverhi]

Matt is an important part of a layup. It fills in the voids between the weave of the cloth reducing the resin rich layup that you get using just cloth. It also provides separation between the layers of cloth/roving so they get an 'I' beam effect which makes for a stiffer layup. Check on the solubility of the matt binder with epoxy. Haven't had any problem with the matt binder dissolving in epoxy. Older matt and some new may not be compatible as the binder in the matt was dissolved by the styrene in polyester resin. I use mostly cloth with matt stitched to it and works fine with epoxy.

If the bend in the keel bolts was slight straightening them wouldn't reduce their strength much if at all. Metal has to be bent beyond a certain amount and straightened repeatedly to reduce it's strength. Suspect a torch was involved which could cause tempering issues but would bet that a knowledgable engineer would tell you it's not a problem for a one time job. The real issue is what resin they used. Epoxy makes a strong secondary bond that is close to the chemical bond of a newly laid up hull. Polyester resin doesn't have that strong a secondary bond and would make me nervous if that's what they used. Would definitely want to know the qualifications of the surveyor that over saw the rebuild.

Don't know that I'd be confident sailing this boat offshore. Repairing a hole in the hull, even a large one would be something that wouldn't bother me all that much but a keel has so much street involved. Insurance may be another issue

[Tillsbury]

The cloth/mat combination is stitched together and works fine with epoxy. It’s CSM alone that has the styrene binders that don’t dissolve in epoxy. According to Boatworks Today

[Kenomac]

Our Hunter 450 had the keel removed and keel bolts repaired and replaced following a corrosion issue. Following the repairs, the boat was better than new in my opinion. I see no difference why the Catalina would be any different if properly repaired.

[Matt Johnson]

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...a-470-3545167/

It's possibly stronger than OEM, but it would take me awhile before I could sleep soundly with the knowledge of the repair holding my keel on.

Good luck,

Matt

[Fore and Aft]

You are talking different issues Kenomac. Replacing corroded keel bolts is fairly routine and should return the keel hull join back to “as good as new”. Repairing a keel that has been torn of a hull by the yacht falling of its cradle is major structural work. Can you imagine the shock loading on the hull? The more I think about this the more I would want to check all the fibreglass tabbing on every bulkhead. Even the engine mounts would concern me, imagine the load they sustained and then handled until the yacht was stood back up? Throw a yacht that hard on its side and anything is possible. I wonder if the rig was replaced? Chain plates checked? Who engineered the fibreglass repair lay up?
Google tells me it’s a 9000lb keel hanging of that repair. That’s a lot of leverage on a repair no matter how well it’s done.
Cheers

[redneckrob]

At a minimum hire a mechanical engineer for an hour of their time and expertise to discuss the issue of bending back the keel bolt. If we simply dropped the 2" blade pins on the helicopter I flew they had to be replaced, let alone if they were bent! From my experience in aircraft maintenance that just screams someone who doesn't understand metal deformation and its impact on the strength of a fastener.