Caliber vs Island Packet

[sck5]

It really is true that tacking angles arent always that important. In last season's round trip from Rock Hall MD to the Grenadines and back I could count on my fingers the number of times we tacked. Virtually all of the sailing was some kind of reach - Usually we would motor out of the anchorage, set the sails, and go until it was time to drop the sails and go into the next anchorage. We actually had a novice sailor who came to meet us in Bequia to visit for a week sailing around the Grenadines. He wanted to learn everything he could and on day 4 he said "Hey can we tack at least once?"

[matauwhi]

G'day, mate. We were looking at the very same decision back in the mid 90's when we were deciding to go. There weren't many used ones around then, so we were looking at buying new and then were going to have to outfit it with all the right liveaboard gear for our needs.

Just happened to come across a Mason 53 in excellent shape. Had to up the budget a bit, but it had all the gear, minus some good batteries and charging system. Ended up buying it and have never regretted it. She has rewarded us beyond our expectations.

Just a footnote. We crewed on an IP35 in the 1995 Caribbean 1500. Finished 1st in our fleet, 5 overall and somewhere around mid fleet actually crossing the line, if I recall correctly. Sometimes a heavier displacement boat will move through bigger seas (that old momentum thing) and give you a few more miles logged over the day, plus a more comfortable ride than a lighter displacement hull for the same length. I wouldn't hesitate to sail offshore on an IP again.

I didn't like the nav station layout on the Caliber 40 either (being next to the stove), but at the end of the day, the Mason 53 kept us from having to make that big decision.

All the best with yours. Cheers.

[forsailbyowner]

Peoples ideas of a good sailing boat differ. I recently sailed with a friend who has a faster lighter boat who would zoom by me at light wind speeds. In heavy weather I cruised along rather comfortably on autopilot with a tiny storm jib and main on second reef while he had just a scrap of jib rolled out and struggled with the helm to the point of exhaustion due to his autopilot not being able to keep up. I arrived 4 hrs earlier on the heavy weather leg and a day earlier after he slept most of the next day recovering. anchored along each other my boat was barely moving while his was experiencing a lot of motion. I slept well while he looked haggard in the morning and said he couldnt sleep because of all the motion. Me thinks some of these people who thumb their noses at heavy boats do more reading about sailing than cruising. just my 2 cents

[Auspicious]

Well let's all pile on, shall we? *grin*

Originally Posted by Hud3

An IP will never be able to point like a J-boat, obviously, but in the conditions you normally encounter on passages to and from the Caribbean, the IPs do a lot better than you might expect. One of the reasons for that is that the boat's inherent sailing characteristics allow the helmsman to go faster with more comfort, safety, and less stress on the boat and rig than many "faster", lighter fin keelers. It carries the weight of supplies and gear needed for long-term cruising well, also.

Definitely important characteristics and some of the reasons that IPs sell so well and have a loyal ownership community.

Originally Posted by Hud3

There's a lot more to offshore sailing performance than theoretical hull speed and pointing ability.

Of course. There is actual boat speed and pointing in addition to the other factors you cited.

The most important factor, bar none, is the sailor. Look at the Caribbean 1500 and see what boats are in surprising places. I chalk that up to the sailors not the boats. I firmly believe that the best investment most of us could make is in our skills.

That said, keeping the boat moving in the right direction is important.

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

And you have made how many offshore passages in an IP?

I'm not sure. 5? 6? 7? I remember a couple of 380s, a 40, and a 485. I've done hops in a 370 and a 420 but those weren't offshore. I can dig out my 719s forms if you like but you'll have to take me to dinner first.

To be clear I LIKE IPs. I darn near spent my own money on a new 370 in 2005. The IP was higher than a lot of other really nice boats in my selection process, second only to the boat I actually bought. *grin*

As Hud points out, the ability to keep the crew comfortable and fed is important. IP does that pretty well. There are other boats that do that too and sail faster and point higher IF the sailor can take advantage of the potential.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, iwindance.

[rostyvyg]

I know this is an old post but for someone who has to make a decision now, I would like to chime in about sailing characteristics of Island Packets. The small ones are, indeed, slow to windward. The larger ones (IP38 and up, IP 380 and up) sail just fine as long as the crew knows how to trim the sails and is not slacking at doing that when warranted. The truth is - they are very forgiving, stable and reasonably fast on all points of sail and many owners tend to set and forget their sails until something drastic happens. This is often true when they are crewed by older couples who have nowhere to rush which is who predominantly owns the IP's. Why such demographics - beats me... Maybe because they cost a lot originally and were sold as an ultimate "retirement cruiser". Put a younger crew who likes to tinker with sail trim every few minutes on a larger IP and it can hold it's own against sailboats with similar displacements. Just because a Volvo or an Audi station wagon (an estate for our friends across the puddle) is usually driven in a prudent manner by a soccer mom doesn't mean it can't be taken to a track by her son for a weekend of speed and fun. Also, Bob Johnson, specifically designed the IP's for the challenges presented by the Florida coast, ICW and Bahamas, thus low draft and restricted mast height. Having sailed one there for 2 years now I came to greatly appreciate these features.

Also, as it was mentioned earlier in the thread, the construction quality is rather high, the boats are very comfortable to live on and tankage is enormous for their sizes. Check an IP 380 or IP420 in person, for example, and you will understand why they keep their value so high after all these years.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by rostyvyg

The small ones are, indeed, slow to windward. The larger ones (IP38 and up, IP 380 and up) sail just fine as long as the crew knows how to trim the sails and is not slacking at doing that when warranted.

I disagree. With good sail trim the older two-digit IPs (e.g. IP 38) sail a LOT better especially upwind than the newer three-digit IPs (e.g. IP 380). Bob's Full-Foil Keel (tm) is not bad but leeway is significantly more than a deeper keel.

[Stu Jackson]

One thing IIRC about the Caliber side decks is that they are canted. The concept, used by other builders sometimes, is that when beating the high side deck is level. That, of course, makes the leeward side steeper. It also means that both side decks are tilted when at anchor. I found that disconcerting at rest, and dangerous to go forward on the lee side when the boat's moving.


I don't know if all Calibers are like that, IIRC it was a 40 I was aboard.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I disagree. With good sail trim the older two-digit IPs (e.g. IP 38) sail a LOT better especially upwind than the newer three-digit IPs (e.g. IP 380). Bob's Full-Foil Keel (tm) is not bad but leeway is significantly more than a deeper keel.

I have found that to be with us sailing with an IP 420, which I expected to run away from us, only to find the opposite, which surprised me, as they are a bigger boat.
An IP380 is really an IP 35 with the sugar scoop extension, I believe.

Although just looking at it, it seemed the sails on the 420 were undersized if that makes sense.

[rostyvyg]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I disagree. With good sail trim the older two-digit IPs (e.g. IP 38) sail a LOT better especially upwind than the newer three-digit IPs (e.g. IP 380). Bob's Full-Foil Keel (tm) is not bad but leeway is significantly more than a deeper keel.

I was not comparing 2 digit IP's with 3 digit IP's. I was comparing smaller IP's with Larger IP's. Also, to understand what Island Packets are about I included below part of the interview with Bob Johnson taken by "The Good Old Boat a while ago:

"GOB: What is it about Island Packet that makes them an expressly offshore boat and that makes them different, that defines the niche in the market that you feel you fill competitively?

RKJ: In a word, cruising. Quality, safe, dependable cruising. A good turn of speed but not built with that focus. All boats are compromises, and that's what we favor. Our motto is "First in cruising." We improved the cutter rig, employ roller furling on all sails, a Hoyt Boom staysail, and a full keel in profile only, that is, a long fin keel, not a wineglass section. All the ballast is in the bottom of the keel -- very low and elongated and internal with a low center of gravity. It acts as a backbone to the yacht and adds strength. One fell off a jacknifed trailer at highway speeds and skidded along an Interstate highway and survived with only minor damage. It was essentialy intact; you could have sailed it away.

The keel is something that's at the heart of an Island Packet, it's something I've never wavered from. It's been noted that we're the only full-keel manufacturer although I prefer to think of it as a fin keel that's morphed to a long fin keel, not a full keel morphed down to what we have. I call it a Full Foil Keel. It's a 6 1/2 to 7 percent thickness airfoil, which is relatively thin with a modest amount of frontal area for its size. It's thick because it's so long, but water doesn't care; it's going around a relatively slim blade. We have all the ballast down low and a nice sump for any bilge water to collect in. One of the major advantages to it is that the keel is not fastened to the boat, it is part of the hull, everything is internal and the ballast is capped so we have a double bottom. You could take a chain saw and remove all the glass around the keel and nothing would happen; you'd still have full watertight integrity. You don't have to have access to keel bolts so tankage can be placed under the sole, below the waterline in the middle of the boat, adding to stability. The tanks are heavy when they're full. And whether they're full or empty it doesn't change the trim much. With no keel bolts you don't need to have access to them; they don't need to be periodically tightened. In the event of a hard grounding you don't have to worry about all the shock being absorbed by a handful of steel bolts, leading to leaks or even structural failure.

The ballast fits inside the keel, and keel and hull are molded in one piece with the ballast ingots -- lead or iron in past boats -- but mostly lead now, secured in place with cement and resin. The keel is part of the hull, molded in one piece, the angle between the hull and keel is actually a radius, not a right angle, reinforced inside with a series of floor timbers (the garboard on a wooden boat, this is a highly stressed part of the hull) and we have double overlaps and local reinforcement there. One of the things that's hard to quantify, but easy, I think, to appreciate, is that a hull in a seaway is subject to a variety of motions and forces as the turbulence of this heavy, viscous fluid (water) acts on it. These confused motions reach way below the surface, and a long keel tends to average out and damp these loads in a way a fin keel and a separated rudder cannot. Fin keels give you a much livelier boat, and if you want to go racing, engage in tacking duels and such, that's exactly what you design for, but you pay a price for that attribute. There are ways to mitigate this but, in general, every effort to shorten the length of that keel is going to require either more draft or more control. You want a boat that's easy to steer for long periods of time so your autopilot doesn't have to work its lungs out to steer a straight course. And a cruising boat wants to be able to sail itself without a lot of work. And you certainly don't want it to broach. Cruising sailors like the wind over their shoulders, and that's when you have quartering or following seas. You don't want a cruising boat to get easily knocked off course or broach and roll over.

GOB: Every boat is a compromise. What's the price you pay for these cruising virtues?

RKJ: More wetted surface, and slightly slower response to the helm. It's like comparing a Corvette to a Chevy Surburban. If you want a hot rod that surfs off the waves and does 15 knots, that comes with a price. But in your more conservative cruising boats with a large capacity for stores and fuel, the price you pay for stowage, accommodations and so forth will impact performance but still in a pretty minor way. The proof of this can be measured by numerous Island Packet offshore race victories often competing against "performance-oriented designs.""

To re-iterate: "Every boat is a compromise..."