Can project boats be worth it?

[Brioche]

Not clear if you are planning on doing the project first, and then sailing, or sailing while you work on the boat along and along. Personally (and others would think differently) I would like the idea of a value price for a boat with a new engine and decent sails if I could start sailing it immediately. Running rigging can be replaced a bit at a time and is easy to do. There are various ways to replace standing rigging yourself, starting with the lines that need it the worst, if you don't want to spring for professionally done ones. If the bent pulpit doesn't interfere with sailing, and if you can get around on the deck safely, it sounds like you could be sailing pretty soon, and then work on the deck and other things bit by bit. But I agree with other comments that if you plan on keeping it out of the water until you are done, it is likely to be a very long project, and the question is whether you want to go sailing or to be working on the project.

[goboatingnow]

yes but this seems to be a way to make money not go sailing

[s.wooster]

Originally Posted by ShoreFun

The advice is simple and honestly I come from doing antique car restoration, but all the boat people seem to have the same experiences.

Money is the top of the list. How much will it really cost you to do the work????
Do you have the tools?
How much to keep the boat where you work on it?
How often can you get to it to do the work?
Are you actually good at planning and getting work done?
What does the yard let you do as far as work goes?

People often underestimate the tools or try to get buy with the wrong tools.

Money is simple come up with estimates of what you think it will cost, double it and add in a fudge factor. Then you might be close to right. Unless you are very experienced and know your numbers, too often in the car restoration side of things doubling plus some is fairly accurate.

...

You need to be honest with your wallet and your plans before you go forward. We can not tell you if it is worth it. You have to decide what you are willing to spend for your education.

Thank you for all the replies everyone. A lot of good remarks to think about.

Much of the work is certainly routine items that need to be done on any boat. For more context, this boat seems to essentially be original parts since. My understanding is that there have not been many upgrades made to it over time. There are other items on the boat that I'm unsure about such as the state of the fuel tanks & water tanks, I haven't seen enough of the electrical wiring to know how much corrosion there is. On top of Nav electronics, I know it would need a new depth sounder and probably rewiring of the mast.

As for now, the boat is moored in a transferrable slip. I would do as much work as I could at the slip. The end goal would be to move aboard and get the boat ready to go sailing asap (it is not ready at the moment). Ultimately I'm in the market for a long-term sailboat, not looking to flip a boat.

I don't currently have many tools so I would need to purchase a lot of items to get started. You could consider that a long-term investment. But either way, it would be a chunk of change to get started on the work.

My main hesitation is just not knowing a proper estimate on the refit. From those of you who have taken on a similar endeavor, do you have any other advice on determining the scope of work before buying a boat?

Do you find that refits can often end up being the same price as buying a boat that has been regularly upgraded?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by s.wooster

My main hesitation is just not knowing a proper estimate on the refit. From those of you who have taken on a similar endeavor, do you have any other advice on determining the scope of work before buying a boat?

If you're new to this, get a surveyor and heed well his advice. Make a list, get prices for materials. Confirm with marina management that your plans meet with their approval. All but the most militant will let you replace rigging but some may not allow your teak deck project.


Structural problems and leaking tanks are the problems most often missed by surveyors.

Do you find that refits can often end up being the same price as buying a boat that has been regularly upgraded?

It is a question of degree.


It is really rare for a boat to come on the market that a) doesn't need anything replaced, and b) that is fit out to suit the buyer's needs and tastes. I just had a deal fall apart on a boat we wanted to buy largely because it had too much of the wrong stuff that we weren't willing to pay extra for -- air conditioning, power winches, furling boom.


So even a "boat that has been regularly upgraded" is going to need updating in nearly all cases. The only real exceptions are storm/lightning damaged boats that have been reworked with insurance money and are then being sold, and those have their own pitfalls.


In my shopping I find that the major items that almost always need post-purchase updating are sails, electronics, and power systems (solar/inverter/battery). I think in many cases the refrigeration systems on 80s boats are nearly due for a major refit i.e. new insulated walls and doors in addition to mechanicals.



Five years ago I bought a 1975 Morgan 25, spent $5000 on a refit, sailed her two years, and sold her at a loss; she was not in great condition at the time of the sale.



Three years ago I bought a 1991 Hunter 26, spent $5000 on a refit, sailed her for two years, and sold her getting all of my money back. The difference was that there was really nothing wrong with the Hunter when I bought her and she was in very good shape when sold. I replaced portlights, standing rigging, running rigging, rebedded deck hardware, put on fresh bottom paint, cleaned up some of the wiring, and added a radio and a tiller pilot. I guess there was some rotten balsa core in the companionway cover and one of the deck locker lids that I patched.


If you are new at this and still accumulating tools and knowhow my advice would be to stick to boats that are in better shape. You'll still have plenty to do.

[Greatest Lakes]

For what it's worth, I paid 5k for my 1976 Columbia 9.6. It had dry rot on the main forward bulkhead, but the hull and deck had no issues. Rigging was good, sails had life left in them, motor ran like a champ and was newish and clean. I figured that worst case scenario, I could sell the motor and get my money back. 5 years later, the boat is 70% fully restored. The new parts list is significant, Andersen winches, flexofold prop, elvstrom tri radial sails, raymarine everything, including plotter... The list goes on. I figure I'm about 20k into my 5k boat. I have done all my own work, but I also have significant woodworking and fiberglass experience prior to working on this boat.

The pulpit area on your passport shouldn't be a big deal, the deck teardown and refurbishment will be. If I was going to contract out any part, that would be it.

Good luck.

[Madehn]

I disagree with the 2x cost estimate. It will be closer to 3x. ��. If you enjoy working on boats then do it. Also you need to have the financial resources to not worry about spending the funds. I’ve spent 10 k a year in slip fees for five years while working on my boat. We are getting close to ready to go. If I had to do it over again I would think hard about putting that 50k into a better boat that was closer to ready to go. I love my boat and after 4 pages of single spaced typed improvements and additions she is close to being a reallly nice boat. BUT I have a lot of time and money into her now. The list you have is just a starting point. You ABSOLUTELY WILL find a lot more to do as you dig in. Every time I worked on a project in the early years I would find two more that needed attention. When I am done every system will have been checked fixed updated but the time and financial commitment was frankly much greater than I initially thought. If you like working on a boat go for it. But if you want to be out sailing in two years look for a different boat. Also living and working refitting on a boat at the same time is a very very difficult thing. JMHO. BEST OF LUCK

[MicHughV]

Speaking from experience, I've seen countless boat " projects" undertaken by folk from every walk of life.

Whatever $ number you've budgeted, double it, maybe even triple it. Whatever time estimate you've budgeted, double that too.

You will quickly discover as you move along, that in order to fix/repair/replace "B" often requires fixing " C" first, repairing "D" and replacing "E" .

Likewise, you'll have to find a place that will allow you to work on the boat....longterm.

The weather will not be your friend. It will be too hot...too cold...it will rain...it might snow....etc...

You may have to invest a substantial amount of $$ and time to construct a makeshift shelter...etc...etc...ad infinitum.

Back in the day, I decided to build my own boat.
I had calculated down to the last dime, everything I would need and had also estimated my time to the day.

By the time I splashed that boat, the money I had spent was easily three times my original budget, same can be said for the time.

Not trying to throw you off here, but in my humble opinion, it's a lot harder and more expensive to " rebuild" a boat than it is starting from scratch.

[Tetepare]

By the time we are done, we will have spent the same amount of cash as if we had bought a boat in better condition. And invested time and labor.

With our approach there was less initial cash. We get to pick the updates and upgrades. I’ll know the boat inside and out. Even during the refit, I know which systems I trust, and which I don’t.

[MicHughV]

when folks determine a budget for these kind of projects...they never place a value on their own time...in essence...you'll be working for "free"

When I was building my boat, my boat being steel, I never allowed for "consumables"... welding rods, oxy-ac tanks, grinding wheels, electricity (a whopper due to my welding machine working 24/7), gas for car to get or buy stuff, etc, etc...this all begins to add up at an alarming rate.

[Oeanda]

Being only three years in, on the sailboat learning curve, I’m happy working on the project and learning as I go. Fixing broken crap is a wonderful way to learn all about it. I can’t imagine how it could be if I’d bought a perfect boat with everything on it working. How would I know what any of that stuff was? What if it broke? Thankfully I don’t have this confusing problem since all my stuff came pre-broken and ready to fix up. Win win.

[ChrisTheWrench]

Someone else mentioned, but I'll hit the point again. What will the yard allow a diy do vs making you pay one of their pros? what is the cost of leaving a boat on the hard in your area? For example, San Diego boat yards are so bloody expensive to leave a boat sitting while you work on it over your weekends it's hard to make a diy refit pencil out.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Not trying to throw you off here, but in my humble opinion, it's a lot harder and more expensive to " rebuild" a boat than it is starting from scratch.

You brought up an interesting point concerning "starting from scratch".
Back in the late '60s and into the '80s there was a "renaissance", if you will, of people who decided to build from scratch.
No doubt, at least partly driven by the easy availability of bare fiberglass hulls that were produced by many builders, (primarily in SoCal,) that were obtainable at reasonable prices.
Later, there was a survey taken of the progress/disposition, of "homebuilt" boats.
The results probably wouldn't shock many on this forum.
The "average" homebuilt boat, between starting and launching consumed ~ 1.6 marriages and went thru ~2.8 owners.
Statistically, starting from plans or a hull is a stacked deck, but many were those who, (to borrow a line from the movie "The Outlaw Josie Wales",) "Endeavor to Persevere".
Those who "saw the project thru" and kept marriage/body and soul together, found a "place" that money can't buy.

[MicHughV]

Yes, all you say is true.
I started my build in the late 70's, splashed in 1981. It would be my home for the next 15 years, which was followed by two more boats. It would be the start of 35 plus years spent at sea.

This was back in the day, when the Westsail 32 was in vogue for the homebuilder. Homebuilt boats could be seen on many a driveway and in many a yard.

I got to know a variety of home builders. Most aged in their late 20's, but some older. Boats ranged from 32-52'. Schooners, ketches, trimarans, junk rigs, and everything in between. Wood, steel, fiberglass, it was all there.

We all had the "dream" in common, though few, if any of us, had much sailing acumen and none of us had ever tackled such an immense project.

Home builders, myself included, suffered a 99% divorce rate. Clearly, the "dream" was a man's dream, though I spent so much time working on my boat, one could say, my boat took on a personal relationship, it became the boat or wife for me....never dreamed I'd have to make such a decision.....

Of the 20 odd boats being built that I knew about, I'd say about 50% never made it beyond the first year. Another 45% was added the following year.
A mere 5% made it to the water.
Of those 5%, about 90% never made it anywhere. About 5% made it "somewhere" and maybe less than 5% a rtw trip.

My homebuilt boat, which is still around, is on it's 3rd owner. The 2nd owner kept the boat on a farm for about 10 plus years, for the time he "planned" to go, but children put the kibosh on those plans.

The 3rd owner planned to take the boat to Antartica, and was doing some major work on the boat, he posted here on this CF under the name " Rusty Pirate", and then disappeared from my radar. So, no telling where the boat is now, but most likely in a yard somewhere.

That is the tale of just one boat. Multiply this story by 100,000 and it becomes "a field of broken dreams"...

[Jammer]

Hmm, homebuilt boats.


I recently completed a dinghy build from plans that took about 4 months including sails. I had heated indoor work spaces and bought no tools for the project (other than saw blades and some bits). I went about 20% over budget due to using more paint and filler than anticipated, having miscalculated the amount of fiberglass cloth, and having failed to allow enough for running rigging (the blocks and LFRs and padeyes, not the rope). Time, who knows, more than I expected but not by 2x.


I wouldn't want to try to take on a much larger boat, either as a scratch build or a refit.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^
The sad fact is that a big fraction of those who actually complete a home build are builders by nature (that's why they succeed in the project). And all too often, builders ain't sailors, let alone long range cruising sailors, and I reckon that is what leads to statistics like the above.

But, those successful builders have accomplished their aims and garnered satisfaction therefrom. It is only those of us who a sailors at heart find fault with that outcome.

And FWIW, the same sort of statistics relate to those who just buy a boat, ready to use. After an initial flurry of activity, all too many boats languish in their marina berths, slowly depreciating, whilst their owners charge off on another tack. Their money, their choice!

Jim