Catalina 30 smile

[Jetfuel]

Hi all,

I recently had a Catalina 30 hauled out for survey, and found it to have the Catalina smile. We had the boatyard give us an estimate to repair, and they said it would be $5000 to drop the keel and make the repair, plus at least $2000 to drop the mast and reinstall rigging. The surveyor suggested getting a second opinion, because when he has seen it in the past, most yards just grind down the crack and re-glass or use some sort of epoxy then paint over it.

For what it's worth there appears to be only a little water in the bilge, and it seems to be fresh water.

I have read online that almost no one drops the keel to make this repair, as the cost would be almost a third of the value of the boat. What are the alternatives? Is this crack bad enough to be really concerned? Bad enough to pass on the boat? Or are most Catalina owners just living with the problem? And would I expect all Catalina 30s in my price range (<$24,000) to have a similar problem? Negotiated price was $18k before survey.

Thanks

[davil]

not sure where my post went.

First there is an active thread on this issue.

Personally have a great distaste may be allergy? to buy sailboats with keel damage/cracks.

There are at least 3 pages of Catalina 30 for sale in Yachtworld and bet many do not have a "cracked keel"

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for...lina/model-30/

[Tetepare]

That’s not a smile. It’s missing a chunk of something, something more than fairing compound. I don’t like it at all. FYI had a C30TR for 26 years.

Or, wait- what I thought was a hole may be keel. Is it just ground down? Does the crack go all the way aft? Better photos would be useful.

[Greatest Lakes]

It doesn't look like much of anything. Certainly not worth a 7k repair. It would likely reform in a few years. So long as it's not gapped and not leaking water, it's probably fine. Clean up the seam on the outside, wipe it with 5200 and fair it up. Paint.

The 5200 doesn't run like the slower cure stuff, and it remains slightly flexible which helps keep it from opening up again. Check keel bolt torque.

[Pandor]

Looks like a Catalina to me. If there are many available that don’t smile like that, it is only because they’ve already been faired with filler. I may be partial because my boat has its own issues. But nothing structural there and dropping the keel would be way more than warranted

[fireant]

First off, I never owned a cal30. Also, very new to sailing so don't know much.
Before we got our Oday the cal30 was at the top of our list.
Spoke with people who owned the cal30. The smile that you refer to can be caused by a few problems as hitting something or having the keel bolts rust and pull out. Either was it shows that the keel is separating from the boat. Obviously, none of it is good. First check the bolts condition if rusted till no threads left or the nut looks as its rusted away. You will need to replace it if for no other reason but for peace of mind. There is a factory repair recommendation. If it was done you would see new bolts with brackets under the nuts. If the damage wasn't bad people just clean the the keel and fill up the space to cover it up. It's not a repair just cover up for the damage.
Anything over 1/2" and you need to repair. Drop the keel and install new bolts.
Some people would drill new holes install new bolts and tighten it all up. I passed of a few boats that missed one or more bolts that just rusted away.
Also check the mast I found many had cracks on the inside check to see if the head door closes easy. Both problems are very common with the owners saying that nothing to worry about all boats have it. Just cause many boats have it dont mean its normal.

[Spindrift NH]

What year is the boat?
The boats prior to ‘88 had plywood in the bilge which would rot and contribute to the smile. Sometime in mid ‘87, certainly before ‘88 Catalina changed that. You should be able to find a well maintained ‘88 or ‘89 for $24,000.

[Rod Headlee]

We filled ours with 5200 after grinding it a bit. Then glassed over it. We put 20k + miles on the boat after that. It survived the tsunami in Samoa 2010.

[Jetfuel]

Thank you for the replies everybody. The boat is a 1979. The keel bolts do not appear corroded, but also do not appear to have the modification which would indicate the major repair has been done.

In the forward part of the bilge however, it looks like the oak compression post block has been repaired and covered with some sort of resin/epoxy.

I was disappointed to see the smile on the haulout, everything above water is in the best condition of all the 30s I have looked at. Previous owner only did an in-water survey…had no idea of what was going on below.

[fireant]

I would ask the owners to drop the price for the potential work that might have to be done. From the looks at the pics it's not bad to fall off the boat. But if you decide to keep the boat for a long time you might have to deal with it, at some point.
Also, when you sell it, the buyer will ask you to drop the price for it as well. Unless you cover it up when the bottom paint is done.
Bolts look good so I would guess the plywood is rotted and there is more flex or it's pulling out of the keel. The studs are imbedded into the lead. Only way they come out of the lead is water got in and the studs rusted inside the keel. or the boat hit the bottom hard which would cause the studs to be pulled out somewhat then it's a guaranty that the water will go down into the studs.
My knowledge is from talking to a few yard workers and owners of the CAL30. two of who had to drop the keel and do the repairs. They told me what was found when it's all open.

good luck on fishing for a boat.
I learned that there is always another boat if you don't have a good feel for this one walk away.
I ended up with Oday27 and while its smaller and not so fancy. We love our boat for how easy its to sail.
Next slip we got a 78 cal30 that never leave the dock.
keep your eyes open for other boats as well you might find a gem like we did.

[Cheechako]

The infamous Catalina Smile is not down there. It is in the hull ahead of or behind the keel. It is a smile shaped crack from the keel hitting bottom bending the hull up in back and down in front. It may be just a gel coat crack or may be deeper. It can happen on any fin keel boat with a thinner flexy hull.

In your pic: Is that just the bolt-on keel parting line...?

[JeffBurright]

I dealt with a smile on my cold-molded fin keel boat. You can see the repair here:


Stranded at the edge of the world - Take to the sea


The six million dollar boat - Take to the sea


We spent about $7k including yard fees at a DIY yard, fixing the keel and the rotten bow stem shown in the photo, alongside some other smaller projects. Some of that was hiring a good fiberglasser to guide us through the upside down layup, which does increase the complexity a bit. If it was just for the keel repair piece, and I was doing it totally myself, I'd say the time and materials would be at least $2k depending on your yard fees. We decided to go for a bulletproof repair with several layers of overlapping glass tied to both keel and hull. The boat went on to cruise many thousand miles over the next few years and never had a problem again.



I'd agree with the poster who said to use this in the negotiations over final boat price. When I bought that boat, I offered $15k until some rot in hull stringers was found, then negotiated the price down significantly based on repair quotes. If the seller is motivated to not do the repair themselves (which I imagine they are also weighing since this makes the boat less attractive to the next buyer after you), they are probably willing to make a deal.

[Jetfuel]

Thanks for the link to your blog JeffBurright. Had a few good chuckles reading it. It was good to see the photos of your repair and learn that it isn't necessarily a death sentence for the boat if I can get the owner to go lower than previously negotiated.

[Tsuru]

This is what I believe to be true. On the Catalina 30 model, boats made before 1987 had plywood between the laminates under the keel bolts. After many years the plywood compressed or saturated with water allowing the keel to move and the Catalina smile was invented. After 1987/88 they changed to a solid laminate. I’ve seen a couple of tutorials on how this is fixed, it’s a big job, but doable.

The damage indicated from the photo can indeed be from a grounding flexing the hull ,or a rock taking a chunk from the keel, or the problem listed above.

Note that it is not unusual for a FRP hull bolted to a lead or iron keel to show a line. This may be due to the flex difference between the material. Experts can help determine what’s ok and what’s a concern.

If it was me I would call Catalina and ask for their advice. I’ve done this before and found them to be responsive and helpful. The last message I sent to Catalina was answered by Jerry Douglas within a day.

Additionally there is most likely a Catalina 30 owners forum. Join and ask the group for advice.
This forum is great and the people knowledgeable, but you may get more reliable help from dedicated Catalina owners.

Good luck with your boat purchase, I’ve owned a couple Catalinas and found them to be good reliable boats.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The infamous Catalina Smile is not down there. It is in the hull ahead of or behind the keel. It is a smile shaped crack from the keel hitting bottom bending the hull up in back and down in front. It may be just a gel coat crack or may be deeper. It can happen on any fin keel boat with a thinner flexy hull.

In your pic: Is that just the bolt-on keel parting line...?

Incorrect, sir. The Catalina 30 smile is indeed at the hull/keel line, which is not where your diagram puts it, but where the issue in question appears in the OP photos.

I've repaired that (small crack) on my own C30TR, as well as on C&C and others. Our Legend was really bad, but tightening the bolts and filling took care of it.

I'd want to see more photos before passing a real judgement. Whole keel, front, back, closer of the area previously shown.

OP's second photo has a round area that's been painted over- what's this???

Also, the compression post base is a known problem on the C30s, particularly early C30s. If it's been replaced, I'd want to know with what, and if it's held up; you'd have to cut that out to get to it. Also check the deck to see if it's compressed at the mast step, and if there are any cracks.