Center Cockpits: pros and cons

[MicHughV]

As much as I'm an aft cockpit proponent these days....

The Vagabond 42 CC was, and still is to this day....my favorite boat of all time..

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Tortuga's Lie

Yes, very familiar with this procedure, I single hand my Tartan quite a bit, I was saying that this particular Hunter is nearly impossible to leave the helm, quickly handle the lines without it blowing off. If you look at the picture, there is quite a bit of distance from the cockpit to the midship cleat and the coaming is substantial.

When using a midship spring line, regardless of the type of boat, wouldn't the skipper locate the end of the spring line close to hand before he docked?

I don't see "running to the midship cleat" as part of any exercise during docking. One does that well beforehand. I leave my midship spring line connected to the boat's midship cleat all the time on the port side since that's the side I use in my slip. It's coiled in the cockpit or looped over a lifeline otherwise.

Before I get anywhere near a dock, I arrange it to be useful. Not at the last minute or second. I do this when I arrange the fenders.

Plus, as someone mentioned the midship line itself gets deployed at what becomes the AFT end of the dock anyway,so there's really little advantage of an aft or center cockpit layout when deploying the line. And one should be going slowly at that point anyway. Of course, we've all had to "come in hot" sometimes (wind or current or both), but that's a different story.

[Na Mara]

I know it’s a bit old fashioned but I have a real soft spot for those old centercockpit boats with the really deep cockpits and the helm forward under a hardtop dodger. The cockpit is just so well protected and weight centralization so good in those designs.

I know it’s a pain with the forward facing companionway into the aft cabin, and I also realize that the logical extension of such a design is a pilothouse which offers even better protection when it’s rough and a better cockpit to sail from when it isn’t without splitting the accommodation, but I have a real soft spot for them none the less.

Sadly they really don’t make then like that anymore. Even Vilm has stoped producing them.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Rohan

For center cockpits, the most unusual one I have seen is the Island Packet SP Cruiser. You could argue there's two cockpits, actually, but the main one for socializing and dining is forward, yet it's totally disconnected from the helmstation, which is inside a pilothouse. I don't know whether I would love this design or hate it.

This isn’t a CC. While there is always someone perfectly happy with this ridiculous design - which I would 100% respect for that owner’s intended use, I find it quite hard to understand a logical intended use here. It is not a motorsailer either but some kind of Island Packet April 1st use of leftovers from a fishing motorboat aft, pilot house (for a real bad weather ocean crossing) and a summer pontoon lake style forward cockpit - all in one 😅. Not sure why they bothered to stick a mast in the middle, but maybe it added an additional intended use feature that doesn’t work with any of the rest…

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

I know it’s a bit old fashioned but I have a real soft spot for those old centercockpit boats with the really deep cockpits and the helm forward under a hardtop dodger. The cockpit is just so well protected and weight centralization so good in those designs.

I know it’s a pain with the forward facing companionway into the aft cabin, and I also realize that the logical extension of such a design is a pilothouse which offers even better protection when it’s rough and a better cockpit to sail from when it isn’t without splitting the accommodation, but I have a real soft spot for them none the less.

Sadly they really don’t make then like that anymore. Even Vilm has stoped producing them.

Still very much alive. One of Amel’s perfect traditional and up to date design features is exactly this brilliant setup. For some time also Beneteau and Jeanneau CC had this option.

[Tortuga's Lie]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

When using a midship spring line, regardless of the type of boat, wouldn't the skipper locate the end of the spring line close to hand before he docked?

I don't see "running to the midship cleat" as part of any exercise during docking. One does that well beforehand. I leave my midship spring line connected to the boat's midship cleat all the time on the port side since that's the side I use in my slip. It's coiled in the cockpit or looped over a lifeline otherwise.

Before I get anywhere near a dock, I arrange it to be useful. Not at the last minute or second. I do this when I arrange the fenders.

Plus, as someone mentioned the midship line itself gets deployed at what becomes the AFT end of the dock anyway,so there's really little advantage of an aft or center cockpit layout when deploying the line. And one should be going slowly at that point anyway. Of course, we've all had to "come in hot" sometimes (wind or current or both), but that's a different story.

It all depends if the lines are on the boat or already attached to the pilings at your slip............................

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Tortuga's Lie

It all depends if the lines are on the boat or already attached to the pilings at your slip............................

I think I understand this. You mean one has to hustle to the boat's cleat if your midship line is hanging on a piling or you leave it on a dock?

In my case, aft cockpit, the midship line is on the boat.

Whether the breast lines are on the boat or on the dock is immaterial, because the spring line is the only line required to actually dock.

Once in the slip or side tied to wherever I'm going, the boat remains in gear at idle with the helm properly positioned to keep the boat adjacent and parallel to the dock.

At my leisure, I then do the breast lines, regardless of whether they are on the boat or the dock. I leave them on the dock at my slip because they are of the proper length and position. Of course the come from the boat when traveling to other docks.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Still very much alive. One of Amel’s perfect traditional and up to date design features is exactly this brilliant setup. For some time also Beneteau and Jeanneau CC had this option.

These all have slightly higher cockpits than what I am talking about in order to preserve a walkthrough to the aft cabin. Amel do the best job of combining a walkthrough with a really deep protected center cockpit, but it’s still nothing like as deep and protected as the cockpit on the old Vilm boats.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

the midship line itself gets deployed at what becomes the AFT end of the dock anyway,so there's really little advantage of an aft or center cockpit layout when deploying the line. And one should be going slowly at that point anyway. Of course, we've all had to "come in hot" sometimes (wind or current or both), but that's a different story.

Stu, I might not be reading this right but when you say the "aft" end of the dock I think you mean the end of the finger, which is the first cleat you would encounter on the dock as you enter the slip, right?

In a center cockpit boat you typically can lasso the cleat from the cockpit, or step out to lasso the cleat, or step off the boat from a closer point than if you were in an aft cockpit.

For example, we often dock our 47 foot boat at a 30 foot guest dock, and when docking the midships dock line goes on the first cleat we encounter, which is the outboard (aft?) end of the finger. Being a center cockpit boat requires simply stepping over the coaming to do this (with great visibility, I might add) instead of having to leave the helm and run forward half the boat length to do so.

Enhanced visibility and easier access to anywhere on the boat is an advantage of a center cockpit over an aft cockpit boat.

[Nooka]

Can’t say we feel short changed on the swim platform front…. (Sister ship)

[Happ]

Originally Posted by ricwoz

Previously, on my first post ever here, I put up a thread asking for people's opinions about Old vs. New sailboat designs. . It was great that so many people responded, and I learned a lot from that.

So, with that happy experience fresh in mind, I've decided to post a few more threads, to seek the opinions and hard-earned experience of the board denizens on specific features of boats I wonder about.

The first feature up for discussion: the center cockpit.

Growing up in Michigan in the 1960s and 70s these were extremely rare, and I don't remember seeing any growing up at any of the many docks we visited while sailing and motoring in Lake Huron and Lake Michigan.

As a result they have always seemed a bit exotic or weird to me.

In fact (perhaps like others) the first center cockpit yacht I remember noticing was the one used as a prop by the Sonny Crockett character on Miami Vice. There was no internet back then, so I just sort of wondered about it's odd shape, without knowing anything else about it.



As it turns out there were several boats used in different seasons, but they settled out on an Endevour 42 for the last several. Here's a link to one that was for sale, and here's a picture of the boat which shows off the layout:



When I started visiting this site and a few others like it I got a lot more exposure to center cockpits, particularly the Hallberg-Rassy models which seems to have many fans. Here is a current-production 50-foot one from their web site:



Oddly, I've still never even set foot on one, but I have seen them at dockside in the intervening years. So, here are my not-very well informed ideas about them:
PROS:

• drier, with much less chance of waves rolling into the cockpit
• safety in big seas, less likey to end up overboard
• enhances the size of the aft stateroom
• commanding view in all directions

CONS:

• not so good for swimming as a rear cockpit with fold-down transom
• reduces the size of the main cabin
• not as elegant looking as most rear cockpits, almost like a pilothouse
• not as good a position to view the sails from
• weird: unlike every boat you've ever sailed on

I'm suspecting that there are more advantages, or the importance of some of them is more pronounced than I understand.

I notice that there seem to be some very dedicated fans of the design. I also notice that even the most committed builders of center cockpit yachts, like Hallberg-Rassy, tend to also build traditional rear-cockpit layout boats too (often of the same basic boat). So, not everyone is sold on them.

Please help educate me on the pros and cons of center-cockpits, and particularly those of you who own them: why did you decide on the less common layout when buying your boat?

Back in the 70’s I chartered an Endeavor 38. Not the best sailer but had a nice bout small aft cabin. Yet it was bigger than anything other boat in the aft part.

First there are many center cockpit models built. One reason you don’t see as many as they are built for larger aft cabins. The number of people who will find that exciting are somewhat limited because if you aren’t really cruising the boat why would you want a larger aft cabin? As to visibility you actually have better. First you are closer to the bow so seeing it while docking is better. As for the fold down transom you are incorrect that it isn’t good for swimming. Why wouldn’t you want a platform that is close to the water which makes it easy to get in and out of the water? Secondly getting in and out of a dinghy is much easier.

As to Hallberg Rasy they are a Swedish boat builder with gorgeous interiors. Their construction and interior builds are as good as they get.

[livbysea]

We have a CC Najad 46 and have been very happy with the design. (It does have a fixed "windshield" - not a design all would like.) We do not find it difficult to exit the cockpit to get forward, etc. We have a swim ladder and platform, etc. We love the pushpit seats on a calm day and for happy hour.

I think a lot depends on where and what kind of sailing you will do. Our saloon is a bit smaller - but it is well designed for off-shore galley use. As we have aged, the center-line aft bunk is easier to get in and out of. Our transom design is not particularly noisy - our Baltic, after cockpit was VERY noisy.

No one design works for all - try to hitch a ride with folks who have different layouts and imagine how you'd use that option.

good luck!

[Loons]

We have a center cockpit Najad 405, Sweden built, its great, comfortable, secure, the cockpit is fairly small, perfect for 2-4.

[MWhite]

It's really such a matter of the specific boat. The boat we fell hard for happened to be a center cockpit. It's an Olympic Adventure 47, designed by Ted Brewer. We love having that aft deck for gear and we have a swim platform on the stern that works great for getting in and out of the water, or we can do that on the side. We specifically did not want one that looked like a 'wedding cake'. Ours does have a teak hard dodger that raises the profile a bit, but we love that as it is dead practical in all kinds of weather and protects us from sun. Our galley is forward of the engine room and we have a full workshop on on the side with engine room access. I fear we can never go back from having that. It's made cruising so much more pleasurable and keeps messes of projects out of the main cabin. The other side of the engine room is a walk through cabin with a single berth that is perfect while underway. It's great to talk generalities and learn, but it's going to come down to what boat gets under your skin.

[sailingunity]

Originally Posted by MWhite

It's really such a matter of the specific boat. The boat we fell hard for happened to be a center cockpit. It's an Olympic Adventure 47, designed by Ted Brewer. We love having that aft deck for gear and we have a swim platform on the stern that works great for getting in and out of the water, or we can do that on the side. We specifically did not want one that looked like a 'wedding cake'. Ours does have a teak hard dodger that raises the profile a bit, but we love that as it is dead practical in all kinds of weather and protects us from sun. Our galley is forward of the engine room and we have a full workshop on on the side with engine room access. I fear we can never go back from having that. It's made cruising so much more pleasurable and keeps messes of projects out of the main cabin. The other side of the engine room is a walk through cabin with a single berth that is perfect while underway. It's great to talk generalities and learn, but it's going to come down to what boat gets under your skin.

Hi Melissa, this is Mike from the Olympic owners group.