Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I see that form a lot Simi60. But when you google Club Marine Risk evaluation form you get the same page but with the sentence “Note: Boats over 30ft must be surveyed by a qualified marine surveyor” this is direct from their website.
I think the issue is that some rogues just fill out the forms without ever seeing the boat. I personally know one boat builder who would fill out the forms without ever seeing the boat!
I personally hate this form as it is such a vague survey. Club Marine has rung me a number of times asking for more photos and details when a claim has been made.
Cheers

Well, its the form they sent us and accepted so its fine as far as they and I are concerned.

The shipwrights we use for our work have been in the timber boat building business for 40+ years doing commercial vessels as well as some of the better timber vessels in the land.
To last that long in the industry they clearly know their trade.

The other side of the coin is some "surveyors" I have seen over the years have little to no experience with various construction techniques.
I once saw a light foam epoxy boat where the "surveyor" was sounding the hull with a nylon hammer leaving dings all down the side.
Quite a bit of damage had been done before he was booted off the job.
Chopper gun fiberglass hulls is probably where his skill set ended.
Should this be the guy I get to do ours? He is a "surveyor" after all?.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I wonder if this is/was true of most mass production boats at any time. Assuming there’s a range of markets out there, designers and builders will always build to that market.

What were the budget boats of the 70s and 80s, and how many are still with us?

Odays were typical production boats of the 70s and 80s. Still a bunch of them around in all sizes - from 19ft Mariner to 39 footers. Never was built to compete with Sabres or some such but still sailing strong even when not in bristol shapes.

The one I had, whence my forum handle, was 1979 Oday25. Not robust for offshore but plenty robust for coastal sails. Held up very well for then 35 yr old boat. The only real issues for me was 5'6" headroom and the o/b.

[Northbound44]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. A marine head on a larger boat costs the same amount as on a much smaller boat, the same with everything else. Proportionally, the smaller boat costs more. The only difficulty we've found in owning a larger sized boat is finding haul out facilities in Northern North America where the marine industry seems to cater to boats under 50 feet, elsewhere it's not a problem.

Dear Kenomac,
If you mean by “proportionally” that a 54 feet sailboat would cost only twice the price to equip and maintain in comparison with 27 feet , then welcome to reality!
There is no one that would agree with you considering the fact that a bigger boat need more complex systems, bigger and stronger rigging.
I did three complete rehab on different boats and believe me, when you’re the one who pay, you know what I mean.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Odays were typical production boats of the 70s and 80s. Still a bunch of them around in all sizes - from 19ft Mariner to 39 footers. Never was built to compete with Sabres or some such but still sailing strong even when not in bristol shapes. ...

Good example. Now, all we need to do is get a hold of the number produced (easy) and compare that to the number still in decent shape (hard, but maybe possible through statistical techniques).

[hpeer]

ODay 37
14,000 lb
219 built. 1977-1985

Yachtworld 3 for sale

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/oday-37

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/O'day/37

Practical Sailor review of 9 boats

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...ts_5755-1.html

Perhaps a better pick in there.

[Northbound44]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Mathematically, yes, but the pricing exponent doesn't have to correlate exactly with the size exponent obviously. Referring to my example where sail area increased but price/area decreased. Right? I'm no mathematician so I might be wrong, of course

Not exactly, the thickness, reinforcement and type of material used on larger sail cost a lot more per square feet than for a small boat.

[Northbound44]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Do you honestly think I’ll need to replace the big ticket items like the engine, generator, hydraulic system, Spectra watermaker, refrigerator box and sails all at once at the ten year point?

After 10 years of intensive use ( live aboard), I would say YES.
The cost of maintenance is almost equivalent to the replacement cost anyway.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Nothing condecending intending about offering up some sound advice, I can’t understand why you or anyone would take it that way and respond so negatively.

Nothing cheap about anything on either boat, but I simply don’t make a habit of paying retail was my point. But since you brought up Oyster, their after sales department is second to none, and many of the supplies and hard to get parts have been purchased directly from Oyster at very reasonable prices.

I was simply trying to pass on some good advice to folks with an open mind who might be interested in purchasing a larger boat of any make or model, as well as dispelling some of the often repeated internet myths. But seems now, that my time has been wasted, as the advice has been taken and manipulated the wrong way.... so I’ll move on.

Are you really serious in thinking that advice to look for a good deal on expensive boat parts is novel? Everyone reading this forum is on the Interweb.

[Northbound44]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, no argument here.

I think I've had the wrong impression, myself, that when size increases the costs go up astronomically, and that there's a huge difference in costs between having a 40ft and 50ft sailboat.

A more realistic view might be that when looking at area, volume and tonnage increases (not just length), there isn't really anything mysterious going on. While the costs obviously go up, they may stay the same or even go down when calculated per area/volume.

It's not all linear (all exponential) either, but I'm sure there are lots of costs that jump up to another level once some threshold has been crossed. When the boat gets to heavy to be lifted with what generally is available at yards, too beamy to fit into normal slips, etc.

I guess the production boat builders have been able to change the upper bound as well? Both through lower total costs and through having manufacturing processes/ability that keep the cost increases/length/volume decent?

Your maybe not so wrong, some boat manufacturers add a few feet to an existing boat without adding additional reinforcements and let you think you have a bigger boat without the price tags that normally come with it. It’s not surprising to see that many boats suffer delamination, rudder lost or other structural problems after spending just a few years offshore.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by hpeer

DeValency,

I was thinking more of the hull itself. I runnsteel boats so don’t have experience. But I hear folks talking about hills being cracked because of improper blocking. I see bulls deforming just sitting on the hard. Keel bolt failures.

But I’m digressing from the thread. Point 1 was relevant, the rest is drift. My bad.

You can see all kind of hulls in poor to dead condition, including steel from any year. Mostly old, after serious accidents, storms or neglection (basically zero maintenance) over 20-30 years. There were a lot of semi DIY boat projects in the 70-80’s, most of these couldn’t survive the years, as they were poorly built and completed, couldn’t be sold to new owners every 10-15 years, as most buyers ran away from “custom boats” for good reasons. You’ll see these on hard for years in boatyards all over.

Reasonable brand boats are more likely to be maintained, sold to new owners that tend to refit and upgrade every 10 or so years and these are the majority of boats used or at least docked anywhere worldwide.

[Tricolor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sail, rig, auto steering gear, dock lines, anchoring gear to name a few costs the same on a say 30ftr as yours..???
As for the marine toilet.. thats a crafty comparison..
Respect

Marine toilet or toilets...

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I wonder if this is/was true of most mass production boats at any time. Assuming there’s a range of markets out there, designers and builders will always build to that market.

What were the budget boats of the 70s and 80s, and how many are still with us?

Mike,

From traveling worldwide and my usual attraction to Marinas, my impression is that the “budget” boats from the 70’s are almost gone, some of the 80’s are still there mostly with their last owners - meaning they are not going to be able to sell their boats again...

[Kenomac]

Truly unbelievable how closed minded and bitter many on this forum have become, but somehow not at all surprising. I think it may be time to visit Morgan and Paolo for a while for some insightful, helpful, well-informed discussion for a change.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by DeValency

IMO - not true.
GRP boats made 40-50 years ago had overkill hulls as the experience, materials and engineering were not there yet. Does a heavy thick hull make a boat lasting longer? - not necessarily; Ss we all know, the number one expense and maintenance subject in our lists are the mechanical, rigging, electrical, sails, plumbing, electronics etc...

Those items are certainly more common but there are many "newer" boats being built lighter that are having significant bulkhead issues. In my latest shopping I've come across more than a few multihull models where you need to be extra careful how you cradle them for the hard because they have had their hulls deformed and have had cracks develop.

It would be silly to say that this didn't happen in the past with many type of older monohulls but the truth is in the pudding - there are a whole lot of boats from the 60's/70's/80's still circumnavigating and not having hull and bulkhead issues.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Truly unbelievable how closed minded and bitter many on this forum have become, but somehow not at all surprising. I think it may be time to visit Morgan and Paolo for a while for some insightful, helpful, well-informed discussion for a change.

apparently, Ken, "closed minded..." means that they disagree with you. How inconsiderate!

Jim