Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Live aboard in the Eastern Caribbean. 58 foot Camper & Nicholson ketch. 1984 build, 40 tons, mast 80. Electric primaries and main. Portable power winch drives. Modern electronics and backups. SSB, watermaker, AIS, two chart plotters, LED lighting, new bottom, new decks, modern large batteries, solar charging, three VHS radios. Fridge and freezer each with dual cold plates and 24 volt refrigeration. 660 watts solar and MPPT controller. Generator, two alternators. Very large modern anchor. Sailright and lockers full of tools and materials.

You fogot to post the price..

[Perfect Ride]

As a couple, we just passed 40,000 miles, six continents, mid latitudes on a 44' cat (47' with bowsprit). For this trip, our two finalist boats were a 44' cat and a 50' cat. Here are our reasons for size:

- Smaller is less cleaning and maintenance: We could have done 50' with similar or more safely and with more comfort, but kept size lower to reduce maintenance time. Less boat to clean, polish and maintain = more time for enjoyment. We like a very neat boat, do almost all our own work and so saving 20-30 minutes a day in work adds up over the years.
-Speed helps reduce exposure time in the traditionally toughest waters/passages: Typically larger is faster so there is some consideration for speed as an aspect of size. Two years ago we tucked in several hours ahead of a storm that took down two other soloed smaller boats that were only 12-18 hours behind us. We would have weathered the storm fine, but nice to not have to.

-Reduced crew boat designs: Cockpit terminated lines with all lines except head sail sheets on power winches, furling in-mast main and two furling head sails keep us in cockpit except for parasailor and asym spinaker changes.

-Furled main and head sails allow for fast and near infinite reef options at cost of some speed, but something I am a strong convert of for short crewed passages.

-Beautiful tech (happy sigh): Tech on nav, plotting, weather, sat imagery, communications, etc. allow us to go to very remote uncharted areas with relative safety. We have *chosen all the bad weather we have gone into. Much less weather surprise with many weather models in most areas to compare. What a change in just 20 years.

- Space for toys: All our 'stuff' needs at least that amount of space: water maker, gen, A/C, sail inventory, power washer, paddle and surf boards, sailing kayak, diving gear, bikes, fishing gear, beach and board games, 4 anchors, washing machine, 12' dingy with 20hp engine, deck 'spa' cover, outdoor theater, etc.

- Comfort is a driver for space to a point. Consider that a 44' cat is like a 66' monohull if you use the 1.5 translation. We have had over 20 people on board for cocktail parties and theater nights and done just fine with 44'. We would we have been happy and safe with a 50', but happier at 44' with less deck and water line to have to scrub and stainless to polish.

- Overall design: boat selection is a collection of compromises. It may be that the right feature collection is only available in a certain size. LOA was NOT the primary factor for us, just one of many considerations for our specific use plan.

Turns out that 44' is where all our compromises meet for us.

[Mike OReilly]

This whole discussion is really just bouncing around the how each of us define our needs and our wants. No one “needs” a 60-footer, or a 50, or even a 40 or 30. Heck, no one needs a sailboat.

Point is, there is no One Right Answer for everyone.

Arguments about bigger or smaller being safer, or more comfortable, or stronger, or whatever, are just ways to justify our personal choices. The fact is, most boats made by most builders will do the job for most cruisers.

So what it really comes down to is understanding what YOU need and what YOU want. Match that to your resources (money, time and skills), and you’ve got the Perfect Boat!

… perfect for you, not necessarily for anyone else.

This is why I like the approach of seeking the smallest boat I can live with, as opposed to the largest one I can afford. By looking at the smallest, it forces me to focus on what I actually need and want. I think cruising failures are mostly caused by people not understanding their own needs, and getting a boat that was too big, or too complex, OR one that was too small or too simple.

The fact is, couples cruise the world in everything from mid-20's all the way to 70’ or beyond. There’s no one right answer for everyone, for all time. Find the one approach that works for you now.

BTW, needs and wants aren’t fixed either. They change over time, especially as we age. That’s fine too. My right answer today will likely change in the future. Such is life...

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Point is, there is no One Right Answer for everyone.

But I enjoy all the hand wringing.

[Bill_Giles]

I do recall seeing a survey of liveaboards some time ago and there was strong correlation between the size of the boat and the length of time for the liveaboard lifestyle. It was readily apparent that the smaller the boat the more likely that you would be still doing it 5 years later. Surprisingly the longest lasting ones were sub-30 feet. I wondered if it was that the smaller boat people were really those who were keen sailors and those with larger boats were people who fancied the lifestyle. Obviously the larger the boat the more comfort available, but every increase in size means more expense and more complexity. And it is not just an increase in length, it is an increase in volume so to go from 36' to 48' increases length by a third but doubles everything else. I sail a modern 36 footer and find the mainsail hoisting, reefing and tacking all harder these days, whereas I have been sailing a more traditional 34 footer and everything seems easier, and that is only a small reduction in size. I am starting to look more kindly at power winches though!

[SaltyMetals]

What a long thread! Congrats to Jammer for having sparked an interesting debate. (I read the lot). While some of it was a bit off-topic i do not wish to repeat what has already been said, much of which i fully agree with.

What i think has also changed is not just the use of modern day electronics (GPS/AIS/radar) which means it is much easier for navigation, but that from the early 90's the constructors began to realise the true strength of GRP and the use of carefully placed kevlar that made the hulls so much lighter. There is also that fact that the designs are much beamier than in the past so finally it is not a matter of camping anymore and there is a lot more space inside. I shared a Beneteau Oceanis 400 for almost 15 years but now changed to a Jeanneau 43ds which is all mine and it has almost double the amount of space for an extra 3ft. It made a lot of sense to share when my friend and i were working full time but now we are semi-retired we are happier having 100% our own boats. I did not wish to go larger than a 43 because if i wish to go out for a sail i do not want to be held back by having to find a bunch of friends to help me. I probably sail about 50% solo and everything, including the gennaker on a top-down furler, the windlass and the music (!) is controlled from the cockpit.

There is another item that has not been mentioned and that is the choice between a fully-battened main or in-mast furling. IMHO this does make a big difference in the ability to handle a larger boat when it comes to reefing. Quite apart from poor shape control there is of course a sail area penalty on a standard in-mast furling main. This has also changed with what is now becoming quite common practice to have a vertically battened main. On my boat this gives me an extra 17% sail area compared to a standard furling main. In addition it gives much better shape control. So the old negatives of having in-mast furling have been blurred and at the same time make a larger boat much easier to handle.

PS For Boatman: you say that larger boats (>60ft) are for fat guys "in a merc" but the last time i saw Ken in the Adriatic he was definitely not fat! He just loves the size of his boat with space for all the modcons they want, similar to our love for our own personal choices.
A great debate guys,
Andrew
"Genial Bee"

[GBR134]

I sail a 36' pile of decaying equipment and love it! I visited some mates in the carribean on board their Discovery 55 that they saw and boaught at the LBS. They were looking for a 45' boat to world cruise in and initially thought the Discovery too big but were persuaded by the slick tongued salesman. They've now had it 8(ish) years and love everything about it, They are lucky to be in a position to own it and afford proper maintenance on any system too daunting for them.

By comparison to ours I found it easier to do absolutely anything on theirs compared to ours. I'd swap in a second but the difference in purchase price was a factor of 80 and I can't really afford mine!

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by iLean

We have electric wenches, a furling jib, great auto pilot and the boat's wide beam offers great stability.

If my boat had electric wenches I wouldn't need to single-hand as much

[SVFaith]

Todays modern designs have much wider aft sections, internal volume, providing better form stability as well. Todays 40' boat has the interior often closer to yesteryears 45-50'. I'd suggest that the size of the boats have stabilized, possibly shrunk...given the amenities you can get with todays 40-45' production boats. Good example is the Beneteau 41.1 or similarly sized Jeanneau

[nofacey]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think the real reason boat size has increased is due to affluence. Middle class generations following the New Deal, and especially following WWII, got noticeably and significantly richer. Wealth drives affluence which allows for more … in the case of cruising boats, more means bigger and more luxurious.

I’ve said it before, but I predict we’ve hit the peak of “more.” The middle class generations following the Baby Boomers are poorer, and smaller in number. I think we will see a decline in the number, and size of cruising boats going into the future.

Totally agree that we’re seeing the peak of affluent retirees who are cruising on bigger, more comfortable boats because they can.
BUT I also think the decline is going to be way slower than you’d think, because as the baby boomers age & switch to power boats, there will be a glut of decent 40-44ft fibreglass sailboats on the market for a long time - used big boat prices will trend down due to over supply.....and when does a well built, reasonably maintained fibreglass boat ever die?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by nofacey

Totally agree that we’re seeing the peak of affluent retirees who are cruising on bigger, more comfortable boats because they can.
BUT I also think the decline is going to be way slower than you’d think, because as the baby boomers age & switch to power boats, there will be a glut of decent 40-44ft fibreglass sailboats on the market for a long time - used big boat prices will trend down due to over supply.....and when does a well built, reasonably maintained fibreglass boat ever die?

You may be right; time will tell. The stats I’ve seen indicate we’re into the decline already, but maybe there will be a reversal along the lines you indicate.

The other factor for upcoming generations is not just the decline in wealth, but also the drop in security. This, in fact, may be the larger factor going forward. The rise of the so-called “gig economy” (another term I hate), means an increasing number of workers live precarious financial lives. Added to this the near complete loss of unions, guaranteed outcome pensions, and so-called “benefits” like sick leave, paid vacations, disability support, etc., and you’ve got workers that is vulnerable and very insecure.

If you are uncertain about your future, it’s less likely you’re going to risk getting into optional big expense items like boats. And despite all the rhetoric around being “free to work anywhere”, this is not the reality for the vast majority of gig workers.

BTW, I’ve been a freelancer for virtually all of my so-called career. So in a sense, I’m disproving my point. But I also know how odd I really am .

[sailorboy1]

Somewhere in the last 3 pages I went.............. blind

[RenoirIII]

I think sailing use to be a true passion pursued by those that simply could not do without it and sailed in whatever they could afford. Now, the retired baby boomers "like" sailing and have the disposable income to demand comfort. That, with the advances in technology makes it ludicrous to cramp 2 people in a 36 foot boat. Enjoy life...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by RenoirIII

I think sailing use to be a true passion pursued by those that simply could not do without it and sailed in whatever they could afford. Now, the retired baby boomers "like" sailing and have the disposable income to demand comfort. That, with the advances in technology makes it ludicrous to cramp 2 people in a 36 foot boat. Enjoy life...

That sounds nice but it can make you become lazy and overweight...….

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by RenoirIII

I think sailing use to be a true passion pursued by those that simply could not do without it and sailed in whatever they could afford. Now, the retired baby boomers "like" sailing and have the disposable income to demand comfort. That, with the advances in technology makes it ludicrous to cramp 2 people in a 36 foot boat. Enjoy life...

How can a 36ft boat make 2 people with a total weight of 110kg feel cramped..