Changing upper bound of boat size considered suitable for couples

[Stepmcnul]

Definitely larger boats are more user friendly. Docking a 50 footer with bow thruster, or raising all sails with hydraulics, is a breeze (excuse pun).

Also, modern electronics and navigation result in less time needing to be spent down below hunched over a chart table. (Before anyone gets upset, I’m not saying paper charts are not used at all, simply that more time can be devoted to sailing than monitoring progress manually).

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by thomm225

That sounds nice but it can make you become lazy and overweight...….

If you are going to die of something I'd rather do it in comfort.
Same goes for living.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

But I also know how odd I really am .

Now ain't that the truth..!!!

But, I guess it takes one to know one.....

[Buzzman]

It's going to be interesting watching the used boat market over the next 10-20 years as the baby boomers swallow the anchor and their boats hit the market.

With the top of the bell curve past, it should mean proportionally less retirees contemplating cruising, which may result in a depressed market, which may in turn reduce the entry-cost factor, and thus induce or tempt more people of lesser means (than in previous years) into boat ownership and the cruising life.

Then add to this the 'tiny house' movement, and the parallels between 'tiny house' and 'boat', and more of the Millenial gen may simply be taking up liveaboard as a 'way of life' that is cost and gig-economy friendly.

Who knows, the old boats may just keep on sailing....the numbers cruising may even grow....

Having said that, did anyone ever see any stats about the proportional number of people sailing today compared to previous generations?

As in - proportional to income, capital availability, infrastructure availability etc etc.

Maybe we're at 'peak boat' in terms of large sailboats - maybe future gens will not be able to afford the 'luxury' of a larger boat and average length of sailboats will start to go backwards....

The future is another country....

[secrabtree]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Also, larger boats are now available because they were made in volume more recently. In the 1980s if you wanted a 50' boat in good condition you had a pretty limited number of options, most of which were either unmanageable or very expensive. Nowadays you can take your pick of any number of well built boats in good condition between 10 and 20 years old for very sensible prices, many of which can be sailed single handed with little work or kitted out for blue water cruising with a little more funding.

In my reading of this site it seems that a fair majority of responders feel that the power equipment, etc., makes it easier to cross oceans, but makes a smaller difference for coastal or inland sailing, and that smaller boats are easier to handle at sea, and that larger crew are needed to sail the oceans. As a sailer on San Francisco Bay and a person that has sailed about a dozen times berween San Francisco and Hawaii, including once as a singlehander, I say most are wrong. I've sailed a 22 footer in the ocean and a 39 footer. Withoit a doubt it was easier with the 39 footer. (Just walking around the deck checking things out caused the 22 footer to change course (I could even tack her by changing my weight aroud and tacking the jib on the 22 footer). The 39 footer with fin keel was a beautiful sea vessel for singlehanding. On the other hand, the 22 footer was easier to tack upwind in the Sacramento River, but tacking was so frequent that it was very tiring without crew.

[Jammer]

Thank you all for the many insightful replies.


It is interesting to me that no one has stepped forward to say that a larger (~45') vessel is in any way less safe than a smaller (~37) vessel for a typical cruising couple, though there are perhaps some implications that this may have been true at one time.


While I will be keeping my very modest 25' craft for another season, this discussion will inform my future plans. I am presently sailing on Lake Pepin in the Upper Mississippi, and this will likely remain an area that I visit periodically even once my travels take me far away. Bridge clearance at normal pool is 60 feet above and below Pepin, and this will remain a factor in my selection of my next boat, which will give me an upper bound of around 42-45' LOA.

[SteveSadler]

Jammer While no one stated that a bigger boat is less safe than a smaller one, it's just common sense that a bigger boat is more stable, comfortable, drier, has less motion, faster, etc, than a smaller vessel. But if you're just lake sailing then none of those assets come into play. I have a 17' boat here on Maui for fun.
For ocean long distance sailing, not sitting in Prickly bay, I have a 49' DS. I went 6000 miles last year on her and 100 miles on the 17'.

[secrabtree]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Maybe it’s just that lots of cruisers didn’t come up through the small boat world. I learned to sail on a 36’ boat so that’s not a big boat to me and I would never chose to live in such a small shoebox.

I’m always amazed that the small boat people insult the “big” for wanting to be comfortable. That just seems like a stupid silly position. Us “big” boat people cruising around being what we consider as “reasonable” comfort just think you “small” boat people are foolish. We understand that if that’s what you could afford in order to cruise and if so are Happy you are doing it. But, if you are on some small boat out of fear of a larger boat, that’s just just foolish.

I find it interesting that you say others may not have come up from a small boat. And then you say you learned on a 34 footer. Did you learn on a 34 footer and then graduate to one that is mor FUN to sail, like a smaller boat? I learned on an El Toro (7'11") have had a 22, a 39, and crossed between Hawaii and San Francisco, one way or the other as a delivery skipper in many boats ro above 40'. By far I have had the most FUN in the smaller boats and the most dockside comfort in the floating condo's.

[windlass79]

Originally Posted by Jammer

1. The original thinking was unnecessarily conservative, and with time, we've figured that out.
No

2. The availability and reliability of power assistance has improved enough to change the perceived limits, with electric winches, bow thrusters, and power sail handling becoming common.
yes

3. People are sailing in boats larger than what they can handle safely because they insist on vessels large enough to provide creature comforts that previous generations of cruisers lived without.
no

4. Today's cruiser is more able bodied and therefore able to handle a larger boat.
no

5. Cruisers are no longer engaging in voyages to areas remote enough to require the level of self-sufficiency previously considered necessary, and are bringing on crew for the rare passage they undertake that takes them beyond the sheltering wings of Sea Tow
no

My wife and I plan on doing some cruising over the next few years. We've chartered several boats and have owned a few. We both like the Beneteau 46. She's easy enough to handle, and we like the creature comforts. We like the owner's suite with an en-suite head and bed/berth that you can walk down both sides of. (It's nice not to have to crawl over your partner during the night to go to the head.) We like the large cockpit that makes it easy to accommodate guests for sailing or for lunch. We've chartered and owned smaller boats. They don't seem that much easier to sail to me, and a lot of them are definitely lacking in the creature comforts dept.


I thought the side discussion on millennia's was interesting. One thing I didn't see mentioned is that they seem to want to travel earlier in life. not content to work to earn the house, car, support a family and then retire and travel. they want to travel right off the bat. and they're willing to do it on limited resources. thus all the videos asking for folks to send money to support them while the go have fun. For the most part they don't seem to be able to afford much in the way of big anything. So I'm onboard with the idea that we may be close to the end of an era in terms of mass production of big/luxurious boats. Time will tell.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by hpeer

We too are 44 LOD AND 37 LWL, but 49 LOA. It’s an old heavy boat, not the interior volume of a new one but very comfortable and surely big enough.

One of the great design improvements over the last 20 years is finally the recognition of the importance of maximizing the waterline and not only for a better speed. I know the true perception of decreasing the the waterline at the bow for rough conditions but the newest designs took care of that as well. Transoms are now closed again but with a smart hydraulic/mechanical/electric opening for a much nicer swim platform that also add a lot of safety and convenience with any number of crew. The comfort level is by far greater at most conditions.

The boats are lighter, much roomier and the better built are actually structurally stronger as they use advanced materials, techniques and do not need to fight heavier displacement fatigue forces and torques. Adding to speed even more, smaller sail area, reduced engines (and soon hybrids!). Exciting times!

In a few years the second hand market will be flooded with all these modern boats! And that’s a great thing, as the aging boats from the 80’s and older (not the very high end) are slowly getting out of commission...

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

There is no doubt that technology has made the tasks of sailing a boat easier. It’s probably also made it safer (although arguments abound on this point). Necessities and demands for greater luxury have certainly increased, but I think that’s a symptom, not a cause.

I think the real reason boat size has increased is due to affluence. Middle class generations following the New Deal, and especially following WWII, got noticeably and significantly richer. Wealth drives affluence which allows for more … in the case of cruising boats, more means bigger and more luxurious.

I’ve said it before, but I predict we’ve hit the peak of “more.” The middle class generations following the Baby Boomers are poorer, and smaller in number. I think we will see a decline in the number, and size of cruising boats going into the future.

Well said..in the seventies I had (and still have)a full set of charts, a sextant, tables, Almanac , compass and a accurate watch, cooking on a kerosine stove, two batteries and a lot of experience, got me around the world. .
These days you have marinas, electric fences and swipe cards...
Times have changed and as you rightly mention there is a lot more money available.
Some things have devenitely improved. ..GPS, plotters, winches, auto pilots and so forth..however, one still gets tossed about and at times it can get quit uncomfortable.
High adventure?

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

That's just one posters opinion..

Quite right. .I have been following this and other forums for quite a while..some opinions are based on facts and experince...and a lot opinions are just nonsense.
Every time I posted a question I could pick the answers I wanted to hear.
Its a bit like a merry go round
I mean how can one give an answer to "whats a suitable size craft for a couple?"
35ft, 40ft, 45ft, 50ft? Anyone size is suitable, they have all pros and cons..so take your pick...
I met couples on board as small as 24ft and as large as 65ft...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Jammer

1. The original thinking was unnecessarily conservative, and with time, we've figured that out.
   
   
   No.. It was limited by the physical strength of the man and the rig of the boat using purchases for heavier loads.
   
   
2. The availability and reliability of power assistance has improved enough to change the perceived limits, with electric winches, bow thrusters, and power sail handling becoming common.
   
   
   Yes.. The same level of strength and fitness is no longer required that was needed 50yrs ago.
   
   
   
3. People are sailing in boats larger than what they can handle safely because they insist on vessels large enough to provide creature comforts that previous generations of cruisers lived without.
   
   
   In the main Yes.. The days of jurying rigging ones boat in the event of gear failure are increasingly rare and abandonments are the order of the day.. even from silly things like engine failure and losing iPad charging.
   
   
4. Today's cruiser is more able bodied and therefore able to handle a larger boat.
   
   
   No.. Today cruiser is definitely not fitter and more able bodied than in the past.. at least not from what I see..
   They enter in their mid to late 50's often after years in offices or other sedentary jobs, poor stamina, sense of balance and a list of health problems
   
   
5. Cruisers are no longer engaging in voyages to areas remote enough to require the level of self-sufficiency previously considered necessary, and are bringing on crew for the rare passage they undertake that takes them beyond the sheltering wings of Sea Tow

Read the Crew Wanted List and see rhe piddling little hops many of the Wants are for.. Speaks for itself.


Your thoughts?

See above..

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

If you are going to die of something I'd rather do it in comfort.
Same goes for living.

Whatever works for you.

I just feel much better after a hard workout or a tough sail (within reason)

[Verdandi]

When my husband and I began researching boats back in 2012 we made a long list of safety and comfort features, then we set out to find OUR perfect boat. In 2015 we departed WA state in our Tayana 55 and never looked back. Over the next three years we sailed her the entire length of the Pacific coast from WA to Panama, anchoring all along the coast of Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. We passed through the Panama canal, hung out in the San Blas islands (heaven on earth) for months, sailed on to Colombia, and worked out way back northwards.



Never once have we regretted our decision to buy our Tayana 55. In fact, of all the boats we encountered along our journey, the only one we liked as much as ours was another Tayana 55. I'm in my 50's and my husband just turned 65. We are both fit, but honestly our boat is much easier to handle than most smaller boats because of the electric winches, bow thruster, etc. She is a joy to sail and is strong, safe, sturdy and comfortable...think 16' beam, center-line queen bed in aft cabin, a walk in engine room where two people can work side by side (yes, seriously), two lazarettes to store everything from spare sails to dive tanks, and equipment you could not have on a smaller boat due to weight and space...three freezers/fridge, reverse cycle AC throughout, ice maker, water maker etc. Its our home and it is as comfortable as one, which has made our journey all the more enjoyable. It has also enabled us to remain at anchor longer and go to more remote locations because we could carry more fuel and supplies and make as much water as we could ever want. The swing keel even allowed us to anchor in shallow water alongside our buddies in smaller boats. We have endured gales, safely heaving-to 100 miles offshore, managed to travel for months on end without ever visiting a marina, live in comfort and entertain our friends, even provide our friends in smaller boats with drinking water at times when they ran out since we have a very capable water maker.



The point is, you can live like you are backpacking, or live like you are camping, or live like you are in your home...everyone has different levels of comfort and it's all ok. We just chose to live with the comforts of home and have been very glad of that choice. Just remember that length is not everything! We have seen boats in the 50 ft range that were being delivered and we doubted they would even survive the journey because they were lightweight coastal boats of thin build. Not to name any names or insult anyone's boat, but some have all pretty finishes and no sturdiness. Not so with Tayanas, they have beauty and brawn to match. So if you do plan to really travel on the ocean, you want a boat that will withstand the rigors of the journey... a solid, sturdy, well equipped boat like a Tayana. I can't say enough good things about owning one of them.