choosing a wooden boat for cruising the world?

[Ibetitsthisway]

yes.. i assume I will stick to steel with a charming interior. .. will only need more time for search and maybe some more investment....

I know that plastic can be 100% calculated to be stronger than steel for any kind of abuse... but ... how do I know it WAS calculated correctly?
Same with wood - how do I judge the quality of a 50 year old boat correctly?

in addition wood comes "loose" and plastic delaminates. read the science books... plastic delaminates over a period of 1 mio cycles of "wave hits" to only 25% of its initial strength! and that is without anything you can see with your eyes.... and without osmosis.

steel does not. steel shows rust. easy and honest.

I do own a 43 year old swedish plastic boat. we love her. very fine, small seakind and seaworthy little boat.. but... I bought her for 8000usd. I took the risk and was lucky. but I dont want to take risk for 20x the sum.

[JPA Cate]

Our boat is modern composite construction: strip plank western red cedar, epoxy and glass on both sides. She was launched in 1990. She has been to Alaska, Canada, the Caribbean, and then back to Australia. We bought her in 2003, and have sailed her from Oz to New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and return a few times. At the moment, we have wintered over in Tasmania, our first winter time not in the tropics in 35 years.

If the construction is sound, a timber boat, of modern construction, can give years of service, with a warmth lacking in plastic.

If what you want is a planked boat, with bronze fasteners, perhaps you'll find one. Eventually, timber will fail. But in the short term, it's nature's carbon fiber!

Find a boat that makes your heart sing! Then it is easier to put the time, labor, and money into her. Please note that you will have to feel comfortable going outside of what many people believe.

Ann

[gerson]

Why not?
for 20000 yrs they are sailing here, Carvel or Clinker built and cruising the seas so the are a possibility for doing it, simple and KISS way for sailing

[Jim Cate]

steel does not. steel shows rust. easy and honest.

Except when the rust is (as is usually the case) in an inaccessible place, hidden in the bilge or in the corners under the foredeck. Maybe not so "honest" after all!

And this issue of GRP failing after some number of "wave hits" due to invisible decay... sure are a lot of 50+ year old GRP boats still sailing. Wonder how they avoided those waves?

Good steel boats are indeed strong and useful. Good GRP boats are too, and as Ann has pointed out upthread, modern timber/epoxy composite does pretty well too. The critical thing is the "GOOD' in the above descriptions, not just the medium in which they are built. And "good" boats are not so common IME!

But carry on, mate. If it is steel that you want, have steel. But lay off the unsupported claims that other forms are inadequate to navigate the oceans. There are literally thousands of examples that refute that claim.

Jim

[Ibetitsthisway]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Except when the rust is (as is usually the case) in an inaccessible place, hidden in the bilge or in the corners under the foredeck. Maybe not so "honest" after all!

And this issue of GRP failing after some number of "wave hits" due to invisible decay... sure are a lot of 50+ year old GRP boats still sailing. Wonder how they avoided those waves?

Good steel boats are indeed strong and useful. Good GRP boats are too, and as Ann has pointed out upthread, modern timber/epoxy composite does pretty well too. The critical thing is the "GOOD' in the above descriptions, not just the medium in which they are built. And "good" boats are not so common IME!

But carry on, mate. If it is steel that you want, have steel. But lay off the unsupported claims that other forms are inadequate to navigate the oceans. There are literally thousands of examples that refute that claim.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I am not at all saying that GRP is not up to the task for a vast majority of owners. the vast majority is sailing in newer boats, in fine weather, very careful (over cautious) with their navigation.
All of this can be assumed to be calculated into the construction and I myself was in storms with all crew knocked out bei seasickness and I did trust the grp boat 100% all the time.

But.. what about the boat beeing able to forgive captains mistakes?
What about hitting the ground with 6kn after 40 years of delamination?
what about ice contact (remember - go anywhere do anything)
what about deadheads, containers, whales attacking - just happened near spain and rudder was damaged. ship needed towing... not good if you are alone out there...

etc etc.... racing (with security close by) - baysailing - harbourliving - family cruising-.. all great in plastic. the hull beeing the last line of defence when beeing on your own ... please no grp.
thats why I am not an aluminum fan. it bends less and rips more than steel.

[FAST FRED]

water.html" target="_blank">'Salt-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-water actually preserves wood and protects it from rot.'

This is nonsense from the middle ages . Fishing boats were salted to add moisture to the hull during times of non use.

Dry rot only thrives in a certain wetness range , too dry , it cant live , same with too wet. The salt dumped in was to assure the wood would be too wet to rot .

Most wooden boats die from leaks which allow water to pass and will wet the wood underway or in a rain , and then it dries , passing again & again thru the rot zone.

GRP boats will last almost forever if they do not FLEX. The US CG requires a very stiff hull laminate , about 400% over what would be required for structural strength .

This is were cored (not balsa) hulls are supreme. The hull weight can be held down but the hull can be very very stiff.

Airex core is probably the best , very expensive , used by most Euro pilot boats .

For most folks a wooden boat eventually becomes there hobby/lifestyle , not cruising.

Steel is great , but it must be built to maintain , by sandblasting inside & outside every so often. This means the entire interior and wiring must be built to be removed so the metal can be blasted to "water white"and painted.

Yes "stuff happens" but most old bounce over the rocks disasters was caused by poor navigation , solved with a GPS,and caution.

With todays weather info much of the dangers of storm survival are also removed.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by adjo

Timber does not have "to breathe" and can be sealed/reinforced with fibreglass successfully. The timber must be dry. Ideally use epoxy resin.

There are thousands of good timber-cored boats around. Some of them are virtually indistinguishable from plastic ones and require similar maintenance.

"Saving" an old wooden boat with loose fastenings and so on is another issue but it can be done successfully.

I believe you are describing "cold molded" boats.

This is wildly different from slapping a layer of fiberglass onto an old wood boat. It is generally considered a completely different hull type.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

in addition wood comes "loose" and plastic delaminates. read the science books... plastic delaminates over a period of 1 mio cycles of "wave hits" to only 25% of its initial strength! and that is without anything you can see with your eyes.... and without osmosis.

steel does not. steel shows rust. easy and honest.

Classic case of a little bit of knowledge can dangerous.

What you are describing is fatigue damage. Without running the calculations any claims of 25% of initial strength are spurious at best.

Probably more importantly, Steel is plenty susceptible to fatigue damage.

Wood is actually one of the best materials for fatigue but it usually fails from rot or failed fasteners long before fatigue becomes a problem.

If you are worried about a fiberglass boat not being built to spec, why would you not be worried about a steel boat not being built to spec? Poor quality welds don't hold up to fatigue very well and can hide crevice corrosion.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

yes.. i assume I will stick to steel with a charming interior. .. will only need more time for search and maybe some more investment....

I know that plastic can be 100% calculated to be stronger than steel for any kind of abuse... but ... how do I know it WAS calculated correctly?
Same with wood - how do I judge the quality of a 50 year old boat correctly?

in addition wood comes "loose" and plastic delaminates. read the science books... plastic delaminates over a period of 1 mio cycles of "wave hits" to only 25% of its initial strength! and that is without anything you can see with your eyes.... and without osmosis.

steel does not. steel shows rust. easy and honest.

I do own a 43 year old swedish plastic boat. we love her. very fine, small seakind and seaworthy little boat.. but... I bought her for 8000usd. I took the risk and was lucky. but I dont want to take risk for 20x the sum.

An interesting assessment. Please consider that you have most of the best monohull builders basically in your backyard. There's Swam, HR, Malo, Fajad, Amel and Oyster. Not to mention Moodys and several others. None of these are considered to be inexpensive boats but they're all extremely well built and they're all fiberglass. Plus they tend to sport high end interiors with a variety of options. There's a forum member who was offering a 46' Oyster, pretty well kitted out for $165,000 US. It was a late 80's model as I recall, but still a good deal.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

yes.. i assume I will stick to steel with a charming interior. .. will only need more time for search and maybe some more investment....

I know that plastic can be 100% calculated to be stronger than steel for any kind of abuse... but ... how do I know it WAS calculated correctly?
Same with wood - how do I judge the quality of a 50 year old boat correctly?

in addition wood comes "loose" and plastic delaminates. read the science books... plastic delaminates over a period of 1 mio cycles of "wave hits" to only 25% of its initial strength! and that is without anything you can see with your eyes.... and without osmosis.

steel does not. steel shows rust. easy and honest.

I do own a 43 year old swedish plastic boat. we love her. very fine, small seakind and seaworthy little boat.. but... I bought her for 8000usd. I took the risk and was lucky. but I dont want to take risk for 20x the sum.

Sounds like you already have your mind made up. Why even bother to post the question? Time waster. Your fixation with having an indestructible hull borders on nonsense Steel boats sink, too. Better to put more effort into developing maintenance, navigation and seamanship skills.

[Manateeman]

Your budget is $ 150,000 correct? And you want an world exploration vessel.
You will get a lot of advice from posters who are not professional boatbuilders and or are not professional mariners nor qualified in vessel safety inspection.
Consider my credentials because you might not like my comments.
You have been to the Netherlands where I feel some of the best boats are built.
Aberking and Rasmussen built beautiful, strong and seaworthy vessels. You might be lucky and find one. You might find a yard to maintain it properly.
These combined costs...purchase and the maintenance for one year.. associated with a sound, classic wooden vessel...simply, exceeds your budget.
You might find a steel vessel in reasonable condition in the Netherlands. The cost of maintaining steel should not be underestimated. I’ve never built in steel but have inspected many commercial steel vessels for corporate purchase, conversion and repair. Rust never sleeps and hides very well. Not saying No...just be very careful with budget for repairs. If you learn to weld grind and paint, you will save substantial costs but be prepared for the time for accessing the rust, the repair and worse...the cleanups. Workboat like steel could be within budget but keeping it Yacht like below at the same time...questionable.
Aluminum.
If your budget was 1.5 million, I could recommend worldwide builders who could refurbish an older aluminum yacht which would meet your criteria. You might want to discuss aluminum yachts when you next visit the Netherlands. I looked at a high latitude 55’ vessel design and budget package and the very reasonable quotes from experienced yards, were about 2 million dollars .
Do you think experienced sailors and those who advise them about spending this kind of money are foolish people to recommend aluminum?
For expedition sailing yachts aluminum is the gold standard. Period.
Good luck with your search. Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his band of professional boatbuilder manatees

[BenBowSirocco]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

Hi Jim,

I am not at all saying that GRP is not up to the task for a vast majority of owners. the vast majority is sailing in newer boats, in fine weather, very careful (over cautious) with their navigation.
All of this can be assumed to be calculated into the construction and I myself was in storms with all crew knocked out bei seasickness and I did trust the grp boat 100% all the time.

But.. what about the boat beeing able to forgive captains mistakes?
What about hitting the ground with 6kn after 40 years of delamination?
what about ice contact (remember - go anywhere do anything)
what about deadheads, containers, whales attacking - just happened near spain and rudder was damaged. ship needed towing... not good if you are alone out there...

etc etc.... racing (with security close by) - baysailing - harbourliving - family cruising-.. all great in plastic. the hull beeing the last line of defence when beeing on your own ... please no grp.
thats why I am not an aluminum fan. it bends less and rips more than steel.

HAHA This post is so full of nonsense. I apologize for being rude- but you do not have experience to go with your scare mongering. It sounds like you are buying into some first timers justification for home building in steel.

I think one might argue that in the in the consumer market, more GRP boats circumnavigate and sail across oceans than any other type.
"Idle Queen" is an old composite boat built at home and has circumnavigated 8 times and is still sailing fine.
Load cycling on a proper composite structure is incredibly forgiving- ever seen old windblades on large scale wind generators- these load cycle millions of time a year and some have been flying for 15-20+ years- every gust of wind and variation of directions/velocity is a load cycle for these composite structures.
Many composite boats are taken into the high latitudes. Many composite boats are taken across oceans in the wrong season.

Steel is fine if thats your thing. But saying composite boats are unsafe is absolutely false.

I also might ask: Why is aluminum the material of choice for high latitude charter boats? These professional mariners have spent their careers sailing in the harshest conditions on this earth and that is the material they choose- I dont think its an accident Skip Novaks first boat was steel, but his second was aluminum.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Ibetitsthisway

Thank you all for your very valuable thoughts.

My advantage is to live 3 hours drive from the heart of the Worlds recreational steel boat building Industry : north holland.
There are many (old) steel yachts for sale in very good to Prestine condition no matter what age.
Seeing how plastic and aluminium behave in a crash ... I find no reason NOT to go for steel for a go anywhere do anything yacht.

I thought i might find wood boats in equally Prestine condition.. but ... yes... i am worried about the future rott

I am absolutely not Worried about rust!
And ... having hit the shallow ground 2 times this year allone... steel is my friend ... lol.

Regards
Ralph

Maybe i Stick to the Plan of an old and "cosy" steel hull boat.

I certainly see the initial attraction to steel people have. I was on myself. Steel has a lot of maintenance. I have been in many yards in the US and Mexico. I see a lot of dead steel boats or steel boats having there plating replaced. They are way more maintenance than wood. I have built 3 steel boats, 2 of my own...so I know steel. A wood boat if not left out of the water for a prolonged time is way less maintenance.

I have also seen terrible repairs on steel where the owners weld plates directly over rusted areas. Most of the time those areas became a problem because of the lack of zincs. I was told by a Captain of a large fishing vessel that was at sea 300+ days a year that you need a zinc no further away than 6 ft. from another zinc. I believe it.
Next, look at the numbers. Why are 98% of all sailing vessels fiberglass? There are many vessels which you are looking for that meet your esthetic requirements as well as strength. One that comes to mind is a Tanyana 37. Some friends of mine did a 4 years circumnavigation on one. Some other friend of mine had a S&S designed 1960 steel boat, built in Holland, that sailed to Hawaii from California and began developing pinhole leaks in the steel in the engine room. Some one prior to them had used hot tar while hauled out to hide the deterioration of the steel plating. They sold it and cut there loses. Other friends of mine bought a virtually new steel boat out of Napa, Ca., after 4 years of coastal cruising began to taste salt in their water from the integral steel tanks. You guessed it...corrosion. Not enough zincs. They now use the boat as a place to visit in San Carlos, Mx.

I'm telling you all this so you are informed. Don't let your heart and lack of direct experience take you down a road you will regret

[Manateeman]

Apologies to everyone with fiberglass or composit boats. I simply forgot to comment about them this morning.
I would recommend the OP consider spending $125,000 on a nice classic fiberglass boat and save $ 25,000 for a thorough once over.
I can think of a lot of solid built glass boats which would fit this description and I know there have been threads where suitable examples were presented.
Perfectly seaworthy older glass vessels have a proven track record. It’s simply factually inaccurate to state the material is unsuitable.
The skills and experience of the sailor is far more critical than the material from which the boat is constructed. I state again, there is no perfect design, no perfect material and no perfect method of construction.

Well...except for the technique of TIG welding flattened aluminum beer cans developed by my manatee friends. Ecologically powered by CNMG engines.
Compressed natural manatee gas.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his acetone high manatees.

[Ibetitsthisway]

I set my alarmclock to 3 am last night to view the presidential debate live and it was a bit like this thread ...

let me clearify:

a) I agree that beeing fast is ONE of many security factors offshore. so if you can have a faster boat - go for it. If someone can afford to spend 2 mio bucks on a custom made exploration vessel, go for aluminium. the cost compared to steel will be negligable and the advantages of beeing lighter and faster are very welcome.
but I want to buy the most seakind, seaworthy, most simple(!) and (passively) safest boat I can get for less than 150k. among the boats available, there ARE very good grf boats. I have been sailing swan and HR, I heard about fisher and other superb manufacturers, but if you add the other "traditional" features I am looking for - ketch, wheel house, finkeel or long keel... than those quality grf are no option. there are no ph hr for example.
I do find motiva, feltz, etc .. but they are rare too. so I do end up with dutch steel - or - wood. the question is which one gives me less headake.

b) you can read the science books, look at the insurance stats, see pictures on google, hear the stories told... grf is NOT the safest material you can go for. It has its advantages - sure - but not structural safety in first place. if you build grf to the strength of steel - the weight advantage is more or less lost... the price advantage will be anyway.

c) yes... many many people cross oceans in grf. some sail the NW passage in grf or alu ... and have their boats sink (sorry.. couldnt stand that)...
SUV are a very very popular car typ - still it is also the most useless and unefficient car typ of all. people buy what the like not what they sensibly need. and companies produce and sell what people wanna buy.

d) it is also about emotion. cruising is after all a way of life. we do this because we enjoy it. so... everybodyneeds to buy the boat that sleeps him better. My choice is on steel - at least for the budget.


By the way - I meet a couple who cruised 40 years and did 23 circumventions in that time. steel. one major repair of hidden rust at the very end... good enough for me.


and... if grf is THE hardcore structural safety material.. why are there no commercial vessels made from it?