Circumnavigate Beneteau 47.3

[Jeff H]

With all due respect, I do not think that a full keel is necessary to achieve good tracking. That is a very dated concept. A well designed fin keel and spade rudder boat will track fine as long as the hull design is such that it does not 'heel steer'. Because of their very design, attached rudders tend to develop higher helm loads with side force so that they require more energy to steer. The fin keeled boat should have lighter helm loads allowing an electric autopilot to use less power or a windvane to work more efficiently.

That said full keel and longer keel boats do offer a wide range of engineering advantages in a grounding and allow easier haul outs and beachings in remote locations.

I strongly agree with you about adding a steering vane. In most conditions they are perfectly adequate as a steering device, use less energy reducing the amount of fuel that needs to be carried, and are simpler and more reliable to be maintained. I would still want to have an electronic autopilot (with a complete set of parts as spares) as a back up and for use when motoring.

In terms of heel steering, as we have all tried to explain to the Island Chief, the 473 is a very poor choice for a circumnavigation. One of the issues with the 473 is that the 473 does have a strong tendancy to heel steer, meaning develop higher steering loads with heel angle. This means that every time the boat rolls or heels more or less the autopilot must compensate using a lot more power than a boat that does not heel steer as much. Vanes are typically able to control the course over a narrow range of helm load and angle of deviation and so would be less effective on a boat like a 473.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[harryrezz]

Island Chief, just about everything which has been said here is valid. That shiney, new 473 is definitely NOT a boat in which I would ever place my body or the bodies of the ones I love if I knew it was headed very far off shore. Purely and simply it was never intended for such service - it is just too lightly constructed.
If I hd the purchasing power to afford a new Beneteau of ANY type and had intentions of circumnavigating I'd head directly to the office of a broker I trusted and have him find me a late model version of a boat which WAS designed to do what I wanted. For example, I'd much rather plant my derriere in a used Valiant than a new Beneteau for almost any use ... and there are lots and lots of great, relatively new, rugged boats out there which WERE designed to do what you want ... and which are most likely equipped to do it, too.
I've been aboard many Beneteaus at the shows (just out of curiosity) and they have some clever marketing ideas, but they certainly miss the mark for offshore use. In fact, come to think of it, they don't miss the mark, they never aimed at it in the first place! They are purpose-built for coastal cruising and entertaining, not voyaging to distant lands. Only one I have sailed was about 12 years ago in the BVI. About a 40 footer as I recall. It was a couple years old in a charter fleet. We ventured off the beaten path (which lies between the islands in relatively protected water) and took her outside a couple of islands. Scared the hell out of us! It pounded and every time it came down everything shook and shuddered. That thing flexed so much we honestly thought it was going to come apart before we got it back inside! Nope - never get me on another one.
Do the coast guard rescue guys a favor and don't take a coastal cruiser offshore!

[captdon]

Capt
i highly suggest a water maker. and i have been useing the new one on the block the waterlog. u pull it behind your boat as your sailing and the largest one makes 70 gals a day. mine makes 20 a day and never run out of water,, even use the washing machine.
check it out under water makeres the water log.com
CD

[Strygaldwir]

Additional power generation.
o Solar panels and/or wind generator. Having the wiring done at fit out time will save signficant headaches.

o Inverter/charger to provide AC from the DC sources. Makes you more independant

o Refrigeration - you might want to go with one that utilzes a dual compressor set up. Perhaps engine and DC or AC driven.

o SSB radio. Having access to email and long distance communication is a big plus. They can be a little tricky to install so that they are operating at maximum efficency.

o Dinghy Davits / Bimini - Make sure you are well protected from the elements in less than perfect weather. You'll definately need a dinghy and davits are probably the best place to carry one. Might as well have the solar panel mounting locations built at the same time.

o Upgraded deep discharge batteries - The standard batteries are probably not extended cruise worthy. Make sure they have adequate battery boxes.

o Ground tackle - most cruisers like two bow and one stern anchor. You might want to make sure they can be deployed/store adequately.

o Light air sails. Spinnaker, screacher etc. You'll probably spend more time in lighter air than in storm conditions.

o More fuel storage. Maybe swap some water storage for extra fuel, if you are going with a water maker.

o Life line attachment points. Amazing these aren't always standard.

o shore power connection for 220. If you intend to spend any time in Europe, it might make sense to have the ability to utilize 220 shore power. In anycase make sure you can handle both 30 and 50 amp 110 shore power.

o A big smile and a good attitude. Takes you a LONG way.

Good luck, see you out here.

Keith

[delmarrey]

Could you give us a little more details on the towable water maker. All I could find was monitoring electronics.

Thanx....................._/)

[Talbot]

Couple of comments on stuff in this thread:

Suitability of the Bennie. There has been quite a discussion in UK abt this one. Consenus suggests that your biggest problem will be in trying to go to windward in bad seas. The design has a tendency to slam (feature of the design of this type of boat in order to improve light wind ability) and there is a question mark about the strength of the fittings up forward to cope with really heavy pounding.

As far as I am concerned it doesn't have enough hulls for serious consideration anyway

The towed watermaker. On the surface this would appear to be an excellent concept. I have yet to talk to anyone (other than those attached to the company) who has actually experienced this, and have heard reports of delivery problems (strange as it is marketed as the most popular watermaker in the world). The two times this has started to be discussed in the www.ybw.com forums, there has been some derogatory comments, and the company has been very heavy handed about getting the whole thread binned. I was instrumental in trying to get Yachting Monthly to do a long time test of it, and last I heard, one had been delivered to a Gentleman departing UK last autumn. I have yet to see anything in the magazine about it. I had offered to test it for them and write an article, but the company was not interested. Personnally I am not interested in having an unknown system responsible for such an important issue as water. If the report is favourable I will review this, but until I have seen it in print I am not convinced. The company will point to the favourable report in a french magazine some considerable time ago, but I have seen no other reports from that same magazine so have no ability to judge how good they were at actally testing the device.

[Jentine]

"The all new Beneteau 473 combines extraordinary interior comfort, volume and light with bluewater strength. Designed by Groupe Finot, this brand new design offers a unique combination of elegant lines with extraordinary space and performance. You will find that the 473 boasts more features and creature comforts than ever before built in a boat this size. "

The above quote is from the Beneteau web site. Am I to assume that it is a lie that the boat is not capable for anything other than coastal cruising? The designers provide documentation that the vessel is very capable for bluewater cruising. Who am I to believe?
Just because the Beneteau, Catalina and other boats of their ilk are not made as one offs, they are not junk either as one would be led to believe on this site. I have sailed the open seas in a variety of boats and none have gone to the bottom yet. Very few were classified as "bluewater cruisers", but they performed very well, none the less.
Were I to take to heart the naysayers on this board, I would never set sail because I can't afford whatever you have determined to be a "suitable bluewater cruiser".
Are we to believe that only the Shannons, Island Packets and the like are capable of bluewater cruising? What about the CSY's and Morgan's? Where do they stand? They were built for the Caribbean island hopping trade and built well. Are they not capable cruisers? Well, there are a lot of sailors out there that would disagree with you.
Beneteaus will serve their masters well. The survival of a vessel at sea is more a function of the crew's capablilitis than that of the boat. There are many top shelf boats at the bottom of the sea.

[Euro Cruiser]

First, this thread is typical in that a less experienced fellow (Island Chief) asks about using a 'price boat' (or high-volume production boat or whatever label you are more comfortable with) for a circumnavigation. As the thread develops, IC seems to disappear altogether, offers little further info on his own thinking re: his choice (is he not both a participant and also a benefactor of these comments and the others' time?) and we're left to wonder what indeed he makes from what's he's heard. Also, a follow-up word of thanks would seem to be in order; would we ask a Q, accept an A and then just walk away from someone with whom we were talking on the dock?

NB: He now turns up on another BB, explaining he intends to do a Circle on a Catalina 470, offering a long list of systems and hardware he will put aboard the boat and not indicating he understands, at all, the nature of the boat vs. the mission. So...is he shopping for a better response elsewhere? Does he have an issue with the logic offered here (or on the Sailnet BB), about which he's silent? We really have no way of knowing accept that he apparently didn't learn much - or think he learned much - here.

I'm beginning to develop the view that all these BB's should have a one-time pop-up dialog box for anyone starting a thread. It would read something like: "Are you asking for views & opinions from others? If so, out of courtesy and a felt sense of obligation, stay involved in the thread, helping in the maturing of the subject matter and keeping it on task. That's the price we think we all owe one another when soliciting the time and views of others."

Re: Jim's comments, I must say it's not a very convincing argument IMO to swallow whole the claims of a manufacturer and then offer them up as the basis for dismissing the questions posed and comments made from others, as tho' the latter should be in question simply because of the claims from a financially-incented manufacturer. OTOH and in support of Jim's point, I find we all fail to hit the mark when we use easy labels like 'production boat' when debating long-distance voyaging. I'm honestly not sure what that 'production boat' term actually means, since e.g. a Beneteau, Catalina, Island Packet, Tartan and Sabre are all current USA-built production boats and yet - in my view - they represent lousy to excellent long-distance cruising choices, respectively.

Another problem is that we can be VERY lazy about what we mean about 'blue water' sailing. If e.g. Beneteau had in mind, when writing that self-inflated text, use of the boat when crossing Biscay, circling the Med, visiting Bermuda from the U.S. East Coast and/or touring the Caribbean - each of these involving off-soundings multi-day passages beyond the certainty of a valid wx forecast - then Beneteau's language is IMO defensible. But of course, that's not the message they imply. Rather, the larger, more expensive models are pitched as capable of all kinds of mid-latitude passagemaking, for everyone, without qualification...even if short-handed, even if crossing occasionally seriously-troubled waters and being used at sea over long distances. And that's where they step over the line IMO. As just one pedestrian, banal example, I've yet to see a modern Jeanneau or Beneteau that comes from the factory with an anchor roller arrangement that will last long-term in the presence of a chain rode, a good holding bottom, and a serious thunderstorm or microburst. The 3/16"/5mm steel plate with which those roller assemblies are constructed will eventually end up looking like pretzels. There are a hundred such examples (move over to the nearby chocks for the next one...) and so what we should be reading is something like: "...interior comfort, volume and light with bluewater strength, assuming the owner modifies the berths, adds functional storage space and beefs up just about all the deck hardware appropriately."

Jack

[myblueheaven]

Check several last issues of latitude 38 magazine for a Beneteau that just completed a nice trip around the world...as for me,
I bought my Jeanneau sun odyssey 51 1991 model year for the purpose of living aboard and eventually sailing to far-off ports of interest and adventure. The mast is a rolling furler, and massive. The winches are ST 66's and ST44's etc., as are the blocks big and worthy. There is alot of contraversy about whether production Beneteaus or Sun Odysseys and even the modern Hunters or Catalinas can handle Bluewater sailing. OK, fair question for any boat. Ask yourself this, "When was the last time you heard of one being lost in the middle of a circumnavigation?" YES, WE HERE OF BOATS BEING LOST TO THE SEA all the time, but they are all makes and models and for many differing reasons , not which the least of may be sailor experience or a lack there of.

This question is a bit like asking "car" guys who makes the most worthy 4x4 truck. You even suggest a Nissan or "other" traditionally unacceptable "man's" truck and you get an ear full.

For a better opinion(s) You need to always go back to the statistics you can find through the coastguard records and all the online stats and owners groups as well as company reputations. Also important, the guys who actually own and have to live on them or deal with the law suits if something fails or has a habit of failing. I find that most NAY-Sayers have not sailed on these "production boats" and are horribly guilty of merly passing-on myths and gossip, or unsubstantiated stories from a guy who knew a guy who read somewhere that there was this expert who gave his opinion on the subject???? Seems everyone is an expert yet no one giving the negutive opinons own the boat(s) they speak of nor have they sailed them or maybe only subscribe to a type and style that "your" boat in question is the opposite of..

There are alot of "old-timers" out there two who will never buy a Toyota over a Chevy or Ford! Or a Range Rover over a Cadillac Esalade.

Here are some facts and some ideas to keep in mind while being bombarted with both traditional views and staunchy ..."don't rock the boat" kind of guys. And , of course, the ..." Leave well enough alone" guys who subscribe to the.. . "Change is bad! We don't like change"!!!

Most of the bigger Beneteaus and Jeanneaus( just as an example of a reasonablly priced mass produced sailboat) are sailed across the Atlantic every year by factory- paid delivery crews to be sold here in the USA or chartered etc. That is "Blue water sailing" Not a day sail near a coast When was the last time you heard of one being lost??? . Just recently a 203 or 4 ??? Hunter completed a circumnavigation of the world and was well documented by Latitude 38 magazine. The owner had the time of his life! And saild in comfort, I might add. One issue with a broken rudder that he fixed when hauled out, but nothing else and it didn't stop him from completing. Todays liability issues make manufactures try harder to produce safer boats. Latest technology allows for better designs and at cheaper manufacturing cost by mass producing the design over and over again. Most production boat use name brand, tried and tested hardware and mast makers.

Laminations are better and modern yacht designs allow for better comfort and even , dare I suggest...luxery aboard? If you plan well and watch the weather, the truth is that being out-there in the middle of the ocean is only as scary as you let it be. Most circumnavigaters will never run into a huricane and the silly fact is most cruisers spend 90% of their time either on the hook, in a marina or day sailing from one island to the next once you get across the ocean to the area you intended to get to. let's see, thats three weeks across a lot of nothingness then months of isalnd hopping and sitting on a hook, until you have to cross again.

I love my boat and it is a compromise, sure. But I am not racing, want my comfort, not afreid of the ocean and I know the dangers of a lowering ones standard of comfort and living, and what effect it can have over time.

Are there stronger boats more suitable for scary seas? Sure. But I could choose to buy and drive an armoured car to and from work every day just so I couldn't get shot at, crashed into or die if run off the road. But it would SUCK 90% of the time! Hey, how many cruisers are out there right now, and then calcualte how many have died or will be lost due to JUST their boat design?

chris

[Euro Cruiser]

Delmarrey, for more info on WaterLog watermakers, you can read the thread at http://ssca.org/sscabb/index.php?act...opic=92&page=0 While it suffers from some thread drift and acrimonious exchanges, there are a number of entries from WaterLog owners, none of whom were apparently satisified with the performance of the unit and/or the support (or lack of it) from the factory.

Jack

[myblueheaven]

In regards to whether certain modern "production" boats are bluewater worthy...here are some considerations.

There is alot of contraversy about whether production Beneteaus or Sun Odysseys and even the modern Hunters or Catalinas can handle Bluewater sailing. OK, fair question for any boat you may consider. Ask yourself this, "When was the last time you heard of one being lost in the middle of a circumnavigation?" YES, WE HEAR OF BOATS BEING LOST TO THE SEA all the time, but they are all makes and models and for many differing reasons , not which the least of may be sailor inexperience or just plain bad luck.


I bought my Jeanneau sun odyssey 51 1991 model year for the purpose of living aboard and eventually sailing to far-off ports of interest and adventure. The mast is a rolling furler for ease of use and single handing, and massive in construction. The bigger winches are ST 66's and ST44's etc., as are the blocks big and worthy. The bigger yachts are sailed all over the world when brand new for delivery to their new owners. Keep this in mind. Maybe some of the less enthusiastic contributors to the notion of using a "mass produced" boat to blue water sail can be compared to "car' enthusiest attitudes we see all too often.

Example: A bit like asking "car" guys who makes the most worthy 4x4 truck. You even suggest a Nissan or "other" traditionally unacceptable "man's" truck and you get an ear full.

For a better opinion(s) on your boat in question... You need to always go back to the statistics you can find through the Coastguard rescue or loss records and all the online stats and owners groups of the boat you are considering as well as company reputations. Also important, the guys who actually own and have to live on them or deal with the law suits if something fails or has a habit of failing.

There are alot of "old-timers" out there too who will never buy a Toyota over a Chevy or Ford! Or a Range Rover over a Cadillac Escalade...or you fill in the blanks!

Here are some facts and some ideas to keep in mind while being bombarted with both traditional views and staunchy ..."don't rock the boat" kind of guys. And , of course, the ..." Leave well enough alone" guys who subscribe to the.. . "Change is bad! We don't like change"!!!

Most of the bigger Beneteaus and Jeanneaus( just as an example of a reasonablly priced mass produced sailboat) are sailed across the Atlantic on their own bottoms every year by factory- paid delivery crews to be sold here in the USA or chartered etc. All over the world...the Pacific, Asia, evrywhere! That is "Blue water sailing" Not a day sail near a coast. They are designed to safley and yes, dare I say comfortably get their passengers to and from their locations in one piece and leaving you happy. When was the last time you heard of one being lost??? . Just recently a 203 or 4 ??? Hunter( or was it a Beneteau 46?) completed a circumnavigation of the world and was well documented by Latitude 38 magazine. The owner had the time of his life! And sailed( god forbid) in comfort, I might add. One issue - with a broken rudder that he fixed when hauled out, but nothing else and it didn't stop him from completing. Todays liability issues make manufactures try harder to produce safer boats. Latest technology allows for better designs and at cheaper manufacturing cost by mass producing the design over and over again. Most production boats use name brand, tried and tested hardware and mast makers that can't stay in business if they made cheap unworthy gear.

Laminations are better and modern yacht designs allow for better comfort and even , dare I suggest...luxury aboard? If you plan well and watch the weather, the truth is that being out-there in the middle of the ocean is only as scary as you let it be. Most circumnavigaters will never run into a huricane/cyclone and the silly fact is most cruisers spend 90% of their time either on the hook, in a marina or day sailing from one island to the next - once they get across the ocean to the area they intended to get to. Let's see, that's three weeks across a lot of nothingness then months of island hopping and sitting on a hook sipping coladas, until you have to cross another vast part of the ocean again, to repete the prevous.

I love my boat and it is a compromise, sure. It's not a tank and it is beamy for my comfort and does pound more in chop etc. due to its flater bottom. But it tracks great, is super fast( big importance when running away from a storm) . Easily boarded with the modern open transom( and drains super fast if flooded due to its openess). But I am not afreid of the ocean, and my boat has been sailed all around the Atlantic, Caribbean and South America, got coaght in a gail in the Gulf ( she was fine, thopugh I lost my Bimini))...and did I say she was fast too. Another consideration: I know the dangers of a lowering ones standard living / comfort when choosing a boat and what effect it can have over time. Recommended reading: soory, I can't remember the title, but Tania Aebi's book she wrote after her circumnavigation when just a teenager in a small sailboat, normally thought of as a coastal day sailer by some!

Bottom Line:

Are there stronger boats more suitable for scary seas? Sure. But I could choose to buy and drive an armoured car to and from work every day just so I couldn't get shot at, crashed into or die if run off the road. But it would SUCK 90% of the time! Hey, how many cruisers are out there right now, and then calcualte how many have died or will be lost due to JUST their boat design? Good luck on your adventures.

[Euro Cruiser]

MBH and the group, I don't think we're going to get very far in this 'production boat for blue water cruising' topic at this rate. Stereotyping and hyperbole, in either direction, just doesn't get at the facts. And Coast Guard 'reports' identify neither failures in most of the world (since they aren't involved) nor would they know about failures like the lost rudder that MBH mentions. Even a single brand is extremely difficult to generalize about: e.g. I don't know much about Jeanneau 51's. I do know I was very impressed with both the build quality and demonstrated passage making strength of a Jeanneau 41 I viewed in Germany and that is now about 15 years old...and I know I'd never consider taking a Jeanneau 35 or 37 on extended blue water voyaging (for multiple reasons, not just build quality)...so how can one decide generically that ALL 'bubble boat' brands are suitable (or unsuitable) for offshore voyaging?

Here are a few things I do know:
1. This topic needs to be addressed thoughtfully, thoroughly, offline tho' the results provided on-line, by folks who are willing to spend some time on it, draw on first-hand experience and a technical knowledge base, and have no particular vested interest. (Finding this kind of analysis in sound-bite magazine articles, bracketed by color ads from the boat builders is not likely to happen). And anecdotal reports of boats which do a Circle are not, by themselves much proof to me about anything (since almost every kind/size/hull material boat has done so) altho' they make interesting reading.
2. Even the term 'Blue Water cruising' is a highly general term and I wouldn't know what kind of standard to set when selecting a boat if that was the only descriptor for its intended use. But usually what's meant in these discussions, as MBH illustrates, is long-term blue water cruising...as in the boat being used as a home as well as passagemaker while traversing a lot of distance over an extended period of time. And there is very little in that sentence I just wrote that has to do with a delivery trip being a good indicator of a given delivered boat being suitable for such cruising. (One - of many - illustrations of this is the experience the folks are having aboard Bumfuzzle, which was delivered from So Africa to N America. There are many such examples).
3. Even within the confines of a single set of requirements - let's stick with "designed-in build quality" for a moment - what standard one applies when judging 'suitability' can vary. I notice MBH dismisses a lost rudder fairly casually; on our boat, I worry more about the consequences of a lost rudder than I do about the mast coming down...because the former is harder to deal with, at sea in mixed weather over a long period of time by a short-handed crew, than the latter. And catastrophic failures are not usually the measure of "unsuitable" build quality; rather IME its component structures incrementally failing because of the relentless working/racking/torquing of the hull/deck monocoque structure at sea and the stress points seen by rudder, steering system and rig. Here's a short example of what I mean - you folks decide if this means the boat is unsuitable or suitable:

"Here in Hawaii we sail in rough conditions (F5 - 8/12 seas typically). My 1990 C34 was used as a coastal cruiser for six years and had structural problems with the offshore conditions here, The forward quarter panels needed reinforcing (oil-canning), the floors had shear cracks at the turn of the bilge , and the bulkheads were either screwed in (worked) or had inadequate tabbing (popped). The keel connection failed in a moderate grounding (insufficient matt to spread load into the bilges , no backer plates on the keel bolts ). The hull to deck joint is very strong and holds up very well. The rig (tall) and her unusual chain plates ( Alum angles ) are probably over designed.There are a lot of Catalinas here that have sailed long distances but most of the owners I've talked to acknowledge the Catalinas limitations. I put a lot of sea miles on mine and enjoyed her immensely. The boat for the price has value. But modification for extended offshore work is probably not worth it and would spook me (Hal Hallonquist, Hence, # 1106)."

I pulled this off a Catalina owners group website. The coastal cruising the owner mentions, over 6 years, probably equates to 1-2 years of full-time cruising in similar waters. Did the boat sink? Nope. Would we describe the structural build quality as "suitable" for blue water voyaging? Nope. Are other Catalinas sailed on long blue water voyages without mishap? Sure. Do some also lose their rudder or suffer steering attachment point failures, bulkhead disassembly and other fun stuff. You bet, as a friend who's been in the South Pacific the last 2 years was just telling me. And this is looking at just one issue - build quality - for one brand/size boat, built at one point in time.

This is a topic that is not simply addressed and is not black & white.

Jack

[Robert Lally]

There is a myth out there. It is old and dated. It is also wrong. Production boats are not just coastal cruaisers. The best can go anywhere.

My Audi A8 is a production car. My Beneteau 473 which I sold last year and my new Beneteau 57 are production boats.

I went to the factory and saw them being built. I have sailed in very bad weather. These boats are well engineered and well built; they are CE A rated for unlimited ocean service. Sure a Hinckley is more expensive so is an Oyster. But they are not siignificantly "better". Beneteau's do not break ( there in no recorded instance of a hull failure in thousands of boats.)

They work, they are well engineered. They spread a lot of engineering over a lot of units. I have a friend with a Farr 50. Great boat ($1,000,000.) but not better. In fact it has a lot of minor engineering issues.

I have seen these boats built. They may be production boats, but they are virtually 100% hand built ( the only mechanized part is the computer cutout of the interior cabinets. The computer routers do a perfect job ande save money. The boats are in no way mass produced in the sense of a car. Rather it is more like an airplane ( if you have seen those built). A small group of people ( usually about four) work as a team to perform one hand done function ( like laying the teak deck or installing the toilets).

If I were to "fault" the production boats yes there is some truth that they are pretty down below and could be better configured for off shore rather than coastal use ( smaller rooms, tighter bunks, more hand holds, etc. But this minor stuff. they don't break and will sail you around the world in perfect safety if YOU are up to it.

For equipment, the staysail with runners is probably a good idea. As an alternative, just go with a smaller jib ( say 110) and have gennaker for downwind and light air. In this way you won';t get into trouble through 40 knots.

The Valiant is a nice safe, slow, heavy boat built like a rock. So is an Island packet. But the Beneteau 473 is much more fun to sail and much faster. That said, one has to be more thoughtful not to overpower the boat in high winds.

The production boast also use the best designers in the world. My Beneteau 57 was designed by Bruce Farr. I have had many questions and Farr Yacht Designs has been supportive and considers Beneteau to be an important and honored client. They would not let Beneteau build their designs to get a bad name.

It is time for the world to move on. We live in a world of high tech production products. The day of the guy who built five boats in his backyard is over.

Modern is good. Big is good. Fast is good. (The bow thruster is great, with the bow thruster I sailed my Beneteau 473 alone alot.)

I only got rid of my 473 because I like her so much I wanted to go bigger to the 57 and really truck around. My son liked her so much he is going to the US Coast Guard Academy.

Not bad.

Condor

[BambooSailor]

There are several documented circumnaviagtions on Beneteaus. Try to contact Andy Copeland at http://www.aboutcruising.com/. He was Beneteau dealer and circumnavigated in First 38. He may be willing to give you some insight about suitability of various Beneteaus.

[Jentine]

I totally agree with Robert Lally and his opinion of Beneteaus. There has been a lot of talk on this board and others concerning the applicability of production boats for offshore use. Unfortunately for production boat builders and their constituents, the opinions have been mostly negative with Jeff H leading the charge.
It is unfortunate that we cannot look beyond price as a factor for determining ability or quality.