Commercial boat design

[Jaimesan]

I wonder who designs the typical commercial boats Beneteau Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse?
I am looking for buying a monohull to use as charter and live in and I am trying different yachts by chartering different brands.
Just with architecture education I can tell there are so many details that do not seem to be thought through by the boat designers. And when discussing with boat dealers, there is no way they modify anything unless you rip off the delivered parts and install new ones on dry dock.
We are supposed to be smarter through time right?

Holding tanks handle under weird locations
Water pumps under cabin beds
Push down cleats that get unscrewed
Weak construction in general.

Finally, Hanse has shown horribly over designed solutions that a Beneteau solves simply and I would say more sturdily.

It is so frustrating.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jaimesan

I wonder who designs the typical commercial boats Beneteau Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse?
I am looking for buying a monohull to use as charter and live in and I am trying different yachts by chartering different brands.
Just with architecture education I can tell there are so many details that do not seem to be thought through by the boat designers. And when discussing with boat dealers, there is no way they modify anything unless you rip off the delivered parts and install new ones on dry dock.
We are supposed to be smarter through time right?

Holding tanks handle under weird locations
Water pumps under cabin beds
Push down cleats that get unscrewed
Weak construction in general.

Finally, Hanse has shown horribly over designed solutions that a Beneteau solves simply and I would say more sturdily.

It is so frustrating.

How are you deciding “ weak construction “ are you a time served NA. These boats in the past from these manufacturers have lasted a long time. Mind in 18 years old and in perfect condition

All boats tend to cram in equipment in funny places and under the beds is a common place and nothing wrong with it in general , my water pumps are there , easy to get at , in fact after owning many boats I’m very impressed by my 2004 Bavaria 36. All major systems are very accessible compared to other brands I’ve owned , and I know as I do a lot of diy work.

Major boat companies use very professional well known NA companies who have huge experience in production boats. The emphasis is on production efficiencies so most boat systems are installed before the cabinetry. Different companies solve the same problem differently.

If you don’t like , simply find more cash and have a semi custom design built !!! No problem.

You pays your cash and takes your pick. !

[Jaimesan]

Perhaps a 2004 is a better decade to buy these kind of boats. Bavaria is also the sturdiest I think, less style but more practicality. No need to get defensive on the yacht industry. I will have to buy the less worrisome I find too.

It cost the same to put water pumps behind a galley cabinet than under a bed where someone has to sleep on and be bothered.

The over engineered millimetre perfection that makes cabinets uncomfortable to use (close this to turn that to open this to get stuck with that, Dufour for example). A Dufour 500€ shower handle in stern for example that if not fit well in the little precise compartment will get crashed, etc.

Sea ovens are basically **** when gas camping ones are fine, Hanse extreme narrow heads, Dufour ultra narrow side hatches/openings as if you could see anything on 10cm plexiglass… the list is long.

Freak out when the ropes unscrewed the base of the cleats in a Hanse 508 and made the top of the cleat pop up releasing the mooring line! A cleat that fails! Hanse.

Also, when requested not to furnish couple of cabins, the dealers say they come as they are and you can dismantle them yourself if you want. I get it is like a car dealer, fine but clumsy.

Many things are good, Hanse had a lot of storage and ventilation, platforms are cool items now, finally decks are flat without ankle twisting little levels, but some things seem to be designed by someone who does not sail. Life at sea cannot be measured in millimetres.
That is my point.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

How are you deciding “ weak construction “ are you a time served NA. These boats in the past from these manufacturers have lasted a long time. Mind in 18 years old and in perfect condition

All boats tend to cram in equipment in funny places and under the beds is a common place and nothing wrong with it in general , my water pumps are there , easy to get at , in fact after owning many boats I’m very impressed by my 2004 Bavaria 36. All major systems are very accessible compared to other brands I’ve owned , and I know as I do a lot of diy work.

Major boat companies use very professional well known NA companies who have huge experience in production boats. The emphasis is on production efficiencies so most boat systems are installed before the cabinetry. Different companies solve the same problem differently.

If you don’t like , simply find more cash and have a semi custom design built !!! No problem.

You pays your cash and takes your pick. !

[bil56]

you pay 50 to 100% more and you get what you want ...

[Manateeman]

I’ve worked for a half dozen OEM builders. It’s a business and the choices in design and materials is Nothing...Nothing like custom yacht design or construction. You get what you pay for.
You state you want to live on a vessel and also charter it. We strongly urge you to discuss your plans with an attorney certified in Maritime and Admirality.
Once you step into charters, you enter into a regulatory and legal minefield.
Find a good custom builder and enjoy your yacht. A lot of ideas of how to make money with a boat will sound great but simply never prove profitable. We’ve seen a lot of owners loose everything including their boats when trying to run a charter business. It’s brutally difficult.
Happy trails.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew of professional boatbuilders.

[valhalla360]

If this is a serious question and not just trolling...break out the checkbook and pay for a custom yacht. It won't be cheap and it will take a long time before you are on the water but you can have what you want...even if it's a bad idea.

While there are some cost cutting and image issues driving design, usually there is a good reason why they design things the way they do.

[Jaimesan]

A custom yacht is obviously out of the question because I would already have taken that path.

And I understand there must be a reason behind some design decisions and as architect I can understand the implications of the coordination of the different disciplines. I just don’t understand the lack of logic in many cases if the final goal is to sail in safety and comfort. I kind of find a lack of a holistic view on sailing more than the little details that may look good in the picture but are actually dangerous.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If this is a serious question and not just trolling...break out the checkbook and pay for a custom yacht. It won't be cheap and it will take a long time before you are on the water but you can have what you want...even if it's a bad idea.

While there are some cost cutting and image issues driving design, usually there is a good reason why they design things the way they do.

[Jaimesan]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I’ve worked for a half dozen OEM builders. It’s a business and the choices in design and materials is Nothing...Nothing like custom yacht design or construction. You get what you pay for.
You state you want to live on a vessel and also charter it. We strongly urge you to discuss your plans with an attorney certified in Maritime and Admirality.
Once you step into charters, you enter into a regulatory and legal minefield.
Find a good custom builder and enjoy your yacht. A lot of ideas of how to make money with a boat will sound great but simply never prove profitable. We’ve seen a lot of owners loose everything including their boats when trying to run a charter business. It’s brutally difficult.
Happy trails.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew of professional boatbuilders.

Thank for the info.
I was planning to get a standard yacht and adjust everything that I find not ok. Looking mostly for a Jeanneau since the budget is limited to that level of yachts in 50 feet, around 400-500k. €. Because I don’t know any other builder who would like to take such project for that money.
I think there is more office people committing suicide than sailing people committing suicide. Office life is always there to take any time if sailing economically or dramatically fails.
You are right about the legal part of the whole, checking on that already.
Thanks!

[Rumrace]

I’ve worked with architects and designers my whole life. Some are downright brilliant.
The Italian architects which finally gave Beneteau First a hull rather than borrowing one from Oceanis. The team who designed the Barvarian 65 hid it where as buddy who’s been around boats his whole life and decided to build his drawing may have built the flawed design.
Hanse and Benniteau are working hard towards 3D printing absolutely perfect hulls in materials stronger than any previous hull.
So make a boat without an architect and it’s a fluke of known old formulas.
I just saw a cad racing hull. It needs a designer to sell it now. The designer takes over from the architect and engineers to give it texture smells and humanize it.
Top it all off Jeanneau XYachts Barvaria, Hanse Swan Catalina Moody and many more architects are sailors.

[goboatingnow]

A lot is entirely subjective

For example , I like gear under the bunks as it’s very accessible compared to stuffing things in small spaces. On a boat the water pump noises reverberate through the whole hull anyway

Yes we have all cursed NA who design boats , this is true from Amel down , the only way around that is a custom build where you dictate everything.

Production boats Are designed to be made on a production line , this means common sub assemblies , fast machine orientated furniture construction and for speed most engineering systems are installed before the cabinetry. This often leads to inaccessible pipes , etc.

Having said that , looked after with care and attention , these boats will be happily sailing in 40 years , your 15 year old car will be clapped out in comparison.

More and more boats are not owner maintained , builders know this and build accordingly

I’ve been around Beneteau Bavaria , Delphia Sweden yachts and HRs production facility. It’s an eye opener.

[thesaltytar]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

... More and more boats are not owner maintained , builders know this and build accordingly ...

What do you mean by this? Are there technicians similar to authorized dealerships for used cars, or do you mean the work is vendored out to local professionals?

[Fore and Aft]

Salty Tar here in Queensland any warranty work goes to the local professional. There's just not enough boat's of one brand to have a dedicated dealership repair centre. Except maybe Riviera which is our local boat brand.
I am not sure what the complaint is about boat design. I survey plenty of boats and there's usually a reason behind every fitting placement. I surveyed a custom fishing boat last week that I thought had some questionable design choices. But like goboatingnow says it's probably going to be a $100 an hour professional that has to be a pretzel and curses the builder when doing the repair.
Anyway it's no worse than fixing a modern car. I changed the headlight bulbs on my Hyundai last week and what a mission.
Cheers

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jaimesan

A custom yacht is obviously out of the question because I would already have taken that path.

And I understand there must be a reason behind some design decisions and as architect I can understand the implications of the coordination of the different disciplines. I just don’t understand the lack of logic in many cases if the final goal is to sail in safety and comfort. I kind of find a lack of a holistic view on sailing more than the little details that may look good in the picture but are actually dangerous.

- I assume you mean for overboard dumping of holding tanks. The valve handles need to be down low so they can drain via gravity. Otherwise, you add more cost and complication of adding a macerating pump.
- Fresh water pumps don't require a lot of ongoing maintenance, so tucking them under bed or cupboard makes sense. Particularly on smaller boats, there isn't room for a dedicated engine room.
- A cleat that isn't screwed down is faulty workmanship not a design issue.

[Lake-Effect]

To the OP: for the price of a new production boat, you could buy a used boat of higher pedigree, and still have money left over for further customization.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by thesaltytar

What do you mean by this? Are there technicians similar to authorized dealerships for used cars, or do you mean the work is vendored out to local professionals?

Around me in marinas most boats are anti fouled by third parties , rigged by third parties , engines maintained by third parties. Very little heavy duty diy is evident ( me and my neighbour are outliers )

Manufacturers know this hence boats are not primarily now being built with diy maintenance in mind.

( yes I mean local professionals , typically on site maintenance companies that look after all aspects of the boat. )