Composting head vs classic head

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I was just wondering where all the onboard treatment systems are in this discussion. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think even a Lectrasan-type device is legal in the Great Lakes, nor any NDZ.



Agreed. As I say, this was one of the major reasons we made the switch to a composter. It just erases any holding tank limitations.



To be clear, this obsession with poop seems to be an American thing. I've never, ever, had any Canadian official even mildly hint at asking about my boat's head. I don't know anyone who has been accosted, or even checked. And this includes over a decade cruising the Great Lakes.

Now that I'm on the east coast (Newfoundland) I've never even heard about any pump out facility. Certainly didn't have one in my previous marina, and I don't think there's one here in Lewisporte, even though it claims to be the largest recreational marina in Atlantic Canada.

From my experience, the poop police seem confined to the east coast of America. I suppose it makes sense since there's just a lot more boats and boaters there, but I also wonder if it's a symptom of being over-policed; there seems to be cops everywhere down there.

Ha Mike: Over policed and under equipped.

I have had my boats stopped for inspection on a number of occasions for the usual safety and paperwork reviews. But twice, the boarding authorities requested if it would be okay if they used my boat's head because their small patrol boat apparently did not have a head on board, or at least not a head that was operational or desirable to use. The first time, two young lady FWP agents made use of our facilities and the second time two of the USCG guys. There was no lou on the FWP boat, maybe they had personal use YouGoGirl containers; wasn't sure if there was a lou in the small cuddy of the Coast Guard patrol boat. Perhaps they just plan to return to shore when nature calls. I know for certain that the Sheriff's boats, the Fire Department's boats and the Search and Rescue boats do NOT have heads.

We are gregarious sailors, so I think the authorities felt at ease in asking us to use our facilities even though it would seem to be an imposition by some boaters.

Oh, I almost forgot about the time an FWP agent came aboard our sailboat and used our facilities after giving us a warning ticket for not having a valid State conservation sticker, as it had expired. He was operating a PWC to patrol, so of course had no head facilities. We had to tow his PWC behind our sailboat when he came aboard. After his doing his do, we invited him to have lunch with us and while eating we untied his PWC and left it to drift so as to be able to sail properly. The FWP agent had never sailed before and was enjoying his first experience. After lunching we sailed back to his a drift PWC and we went our separate ways.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by newhaul

...So the poop cops seem ro be just an east coast thing.

That's also my impression.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...Note however that law compliance is not the only reason to have a Type II MSD. These devices practically sterilize the waste you discharge. A sailor might want to have one of these just for the sake of his own conscience. Especially, but not exclusively, if he is otherwise bending the law. ...

Completely agree. I think a lot of the poop laws around boating are bunk. As I say, I think direct discharge in areas of good volume/flow is usually the best way to deal with our outflows. It's just in confined areas, or places with high concentrations of other people, where some sort of holding or treatment system is needed.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Composting toilets seem gross to me, but it's not something I need to think about, so I don't think about it, and I don't know anything useful about composting toilets, so my opinion will be of zero interest to anyone. Hence I keep my mouth shut; a practice which should be more widespread when people lack experience or any kind of specific knowledge.

I wish others would follow your lead DH. I talk about composters because I have actual, direct experience cruising with one. And I try and be helpful to those honestly interested in the idea. I try not to ramble about things I know little about.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by swordds

There is another option that rarely gets mentioned, a Laveo Dry Flush. It works very well for me and I am totally satisfied with it.

Never heard of these - quick Google discovered this YouTube. When it's operating, looks like a JiffyPop stovetop popcorn thingee. Cartridges are expensive - around $2/flush. But thanks - always interesting to see what's out there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMa6yTos38s

[Diantre]

Originally Posted by pzmaria

Hello memmbers, I would like to hear all your opinions and observations comparing a clasic head with macerator and thru hull discharge versus composting head. All the good, bad and ugly on both systems. Thanks for all your input.

pzmaria

Hi

I had a classic head with macerator on my ex CS36 and now I have a composting one one the CS40. It is day and night. Composting is trouble free if you are not to pecky when it is time to change compost. Your are good for at least 2 weeks (2 persons) before it is time to change the compost. The liquid part has to be done every 2 or 3 days by dumping overboard. There was a vent installed. The vent fail and I did not replace it. The smell remains inside with the cover closed with very little smell when you use it. No more pump out or dump 3 miles from the coast.
Good luck

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would never bother cruising in an area where getting pump-outs drives passage planning.

Oh, I am so sorry that you will never have the pleasure of experiencing small boat sailing in some of the best freshwater cruising grounds in the world.

Yes, some people have a very limited experience and view of what cruising is.

In a small boat, one has to take many relevant issues into account. Usually, by the time it becomes necessary for a pump-out, one may be looking to satisfy other needs anyway, such as fuel, ice, provisions, shore side attractions, hikes and exercise, social events with other cruisers etc.

Those with no experience, probably can’t understand that having a small holding tank is really no hardship at all.

PS, my understanding is that on-board treatment facility discharges are not permitted in NDZs, because of the high probability that a large number of boaters will not maintain them in proper working order, or will purposefully shut them down the to avoid the power consumption, or whatever.

Based on my experience with the level of maintenance of many boats, I think it is a good law, and reasoning well justified.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Ha Mike: Over policed and under equipped.

I have had my boats stopped for inspection on a number of occasions for the usual safety and paperwork reviews. But twice, the boarding authorities requested if it would be okay if they used my boat's head because their small patrol boat apparently did not have a head on board, or at least not a head that was operational or desirable to use. The first time, two young lady FWP agents made use of our facilities and the second time two of the USCG guys. There was no lou on the FWP boat, maybe they had personal use YouGoGirl containers; wasn't sure if there was a lou in the small cuddy of the Coast Guard patrol boat. Perhaps they just plan to return to shore when nature calls. I know for certain that the Sheriff's boats, the Fire Department's boats and the Search and Rescue boats do NOT have heads.

We are gregarious sailors, so I think the authorities felt at ease in asking us to use our facilities even though it would seem to be an imposition by some boaters.

Oh, I almost forgot about the time an FWP agent came aboard our sailboat and used our facilities after giving us a warning ticket for not having a valid State conservation sticker, as it had expired. He was operating a PWC to patrol, so of course had no head facilities. We had to tow his PWC behind our sailboat when he came aboard. After his doing his do, we invited him to have lunch with us and while eating we untied his PWC and left it to drift so as to be able to sail properly. The FWP agent had never sailed before and was enjoying his first experience. After lunching we sailed back to his a drift PWC and we went our separate ways.

Okay, so I took a look at the configuration of the Defender Class, 25 foot long, patrol boats used by the USCG. And as per their floor plan and profile images there appears to be NO head aboard the vessels, which is as I suspected because the gents asked to use our facilities after coming alongside and completing their onboard inspections. Maybe there is one onboard their boats snuggled away below in the small crawl space, but thinking not. Has anyone gone aboard a USCG patrol boat, or been a Coastie, and can advise as to their small boat head facilities?

The inside of their pilot house is only 6 feet in length, the rest is open deck except a small space ahead of the wheel house accessible by a small hatch of the front of the cabin structure. Certainly no privacy area to do one's business.

Next time I get pulled over, I'll ask if I can use the head on their boat, It seems they always do the boarding onto my boat, turn around seems fair game. "So where is your USCG certified lou? A Type III portapottie perhaps." But then they are the one's with the bad ass machine gun(s), so perhaps not asking would be the wiser approach.

[JPA Cate]

If they work on a schedule, with coffee breaks and a lunch break, they can probably "hold it" for that long. Could be horrible if they had the flu, maybe a time for shore duty?

Ann

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Okay, so I took a look at the configuration of the Defender Class, 25 foot long, patrol boats used by the USCG. And as per their floor plan and profile images there appears to be NO head aboard the vessels, which is as I suspected because the gents asked to use our facilities after coming alongside and completing their onboard inspections. Maybe there is one onboard their boats snuggled away below in the small crawl space, but thinking not. Has anyone gone aboard a USCG patrol boat, or been a Coastie, and can advise as to their small boat head facilities?

The inside of their pilot house is only 6 feet in length, the rest is open deck except a small space ahead of the wheel house accessible by a small hatch of the front of the cabin structure. Certainly no privacy area to do one's business.

Next time I get pulled over, I'll ask if I can use the head on their boat, It seems they always do the boarding onto my boat, turn around seems fair game. "So where is your USCG certified lou? A Type III portapottie perhaps." But then they are the one's with the bad ass machine gun(s), so perhaps not asking would be the wiser approach.

Those boats are actually built here in Bremerton and due to not having a galley or a berth they do not require a head. And from asking that question from the builders when rhey are doing test runs there is no plan for a head to be inatalled on these boats.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

If they work on a schedule, with coffee breaks and a lunch break, they can probably "hold it" for that long. Could be horrible if they had the flu, maybe a time for shore duty?

Ann

They have access cards for just about every publicly owned marina dock and facilities so no issues here . Their longest trip between facilities is when escorting the state ferries from seattle to bremerton . And thats a 45 minute run with a 20 minute break between trips .

[smj]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Those with no experience, probably can’t understand that having a small holding tank is really no hardship at all.

Had a small holding tank, but larger than 5 gallons and it was a real hardship, that’s one of the reasons we went to a composter. I don’t enjoy traveling from one pump out to another, but each to his own.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

If they work on a schedule, with coffee breaks and a lunch break, they can probably "hold it" for that long. Could be horrible if they had the flu, maybe a time for shore duty?

Ann

Ann, now you have the subject for an entirely new thread. What do you do when you have to heave, say to being motion sick, or stomach flu, or food poisoning. What is your favored "containment".

I know that when the sea conditions get rough enough that I feel compelled to heave-to the boat, I too may feel the need to heave also. My preference is to vomit overboard as spending time kneeling and "praying to the white porcelain God" in the head induces even greater motion sickness. Fresh air and salt water spray helps make me feel a tad better when the boat gets to rocking and riding the elevator quickly up and down steep, mixed sea swells.

As to holding it for the duration, now that could become an uncomfortable and distressing patrol shift. Certainly constrains their patrol radius and station keeping intervals.

Maybe the Coasties are equipped with incontinence diapers like the aircrew on a long range fighter jet, or at least a piddlepack.

I guess one would quickly learn to fast before your duty shift, and To Go before You Go, so as to not have the urge and have to request to return to base; or I'm now suspecting as to what happened with our cruiser a few miles outside the S.F. Bay was they just say to themselves; "Hey, I believe it is time for a safety inspection." And the Skipper responds: "Set a heading to the nearest, nice, sizeable yacht? Let's be sure we all inspect that their Y valve is properly set and secured."

Note to self: Another thing to ask the Coasties after they have completed the next inspection of my boat and have disembarked: "So since you all don't have a head, do you all where diapers?"

No berth, no galley and no head. Basically a go fast, 40 mph dinghy. No joy in that.

Upon further review, even their larger 33 foot LOA, Special Purpose Craft-Law Enforcement (SPC-LE) vessel does not appear to have a head.

The Special Purpose Craft-Law Enforcement (SPC-LE) is a standardized vessel for the USCG and is deployed to stations throughout the country. The larger counterpart to the RB-S, the SPC-LE has a longer range, greater crew capacity and superior speed, enhancing even further the capability the RB-S brought to the USCG fleet. Seated positions, 12; maximum persons, 26. Maximum horsepower: 1,200. Operational load: 15,000 pounds.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Ann, now you have the subject for an entirely new thread. What do you do when you have to heave, say to being motion sick, or stomach flu, or food poisoning. What is your favored "containment".

I know that when the sea conditions get rough enough that I feel compelled to heave-to the boat, I too may feel the need to heave also. My preference is to vomit overboard as spending time kneeling and "praying to the white porcelain God" in the head induces even greater motion sickness. Fresh air and salt water spray helps make me feel a tad better when the boat gets to rocking and riding the elevator quickly up and down steep, mixed sea swells.

As to holding it for the duration, now that could become an uncomfortable and distressing patrol shift. Certainly constrains their patrol radius and station keeping intervals.

Maybe the Coasties are equipped with incontinence diapers like the aircrew on a long range fighter jet, or at least a piddlepack.

I guess one would quickly learn to fast before your duty shift, and To Go before You Go, so as to not have the urge and have to request to return to base; or I'm now suspecting as to what happened with our cruiser a few miles outside the S.F. Bay was they just say to themselves; "Hey, I believe it is time for a safety inspection." And the Skipper responds: "Set a heading to the nearest, nice, sizeable yacht? Let's be sure we all inspect that their Y valve is properly set and secured."

Note to self: Another thing to ask the Coasties after they have completed the next inspection of my boat and have disembarked: "So since you all don't have a head, do you all where diapers?"

No berth, no galley and no head. Basically a go fast, 40 mph dinghy. No joy in that.

Upon further review, even their larger 33 foot LOA, Special Purpose Craft-Law Enforcement (SPC-LE) vessel does not appear to have a head.

The Special Purpose Craft-Law Enforcement (SPC-LE) is a standardized vessel for the USCG and is deployed to stations throughout the country. The larger counterpart to the RB-S, the SPC-LE has a longer range, greater crew capacity and superior speed, enhancing even further the capability the RB-S brought to the USCG fleet. Seated positions, 12; maximum persons, 26. Maximum horsepower: 1,200. Operational load: 15,000 pounds.

you ought to see their 44 in operation still no head but with twin cats and 5 stage Hamilton's they really get up and go :-):-)

[mvweebles]

In US NDZ, absolutely no discharge permitted. Means Type I and Type II (ElectroScan) are not permitted to discharge. Peggie Hall recommends and treat and hold system whereby the lectrasan goes into a holding tank to be discharged at a later time.

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-...rge-zones-ndzs

Information on Canadian law is difficult to find - and has has conflicting information. Inland lakes and rivers are in effect NDZs. But I've also read that part of the issue is that the fecal coliform count allowed under Canadian regulations is much more stringent than the testing on the Raritan Type II units.

Here is a link from a Nova Scotia boating and waterways dept

https://nsboats.com/boats-with-marine-toilets/

Finally, with exception of the Bible from the Doyenne of Doo-Doo (her majesty Peggie Hall), the best single online article I could find on the topic of heads, configurations, and choices is from West Marine. If the OP is still around, might be a good read.

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvis...itation-System

[qwerme]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Nope, I have plenty.

It is highly possible that the urine container could be spilled or the solids be spilled, when handling these containers while the vessel is rocked by waves or wakes.

I have a composting head. I have never had a regular head. Emptying the liquids is a pain in the ass and overflows happen, specially with the kids on the boat.


As far as emptying the solids, always a disgusting experience. It smells like wet soil.. but makes you want to gag. Due do the size of the head and the size of the door, I can't simply carry it out the boat closed so there are spills.



Like I said, I have no experience with normal heads and I haven't had to go to the pump out or worry about that.

It's still **** and piss and not a pleasant experience.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by qwerme

I have a composting head. I have never had a regular head. Emptying the liquids is a pain in the ass and overflows happen, specially with the kids on the boat.


As far as emptying the solids, always a disgusting experience. It smells like wet soil.. but makes you want to gag. Due do the size of the head and the size of the door, I can't simply carry it out the boat closed so there are spills.



Like I said, I have no experience with normal heads and I haven't had to go to the pump out or worry about that.

It's still **** and piss and not a pleasant experience.

sorry but I have to call bs that it won't fit through the door . It had to fit to get in the head to begin with.