Composting head vs classic head

[susgal]

The long (and illogical?) arm of the law. Apparently, one can pee in water and one can pee overboard directly into water. One may not, however, pee in a container then pour that pee directly into water. ( I’m in Northern California and things may be different elsewhere...) I’m guessing this seeming illogic is to discourage folks from pouring “excessive” amounts of pee stored in containers into water ...
I must admit some surprise at some expressions of utter squeamishness regarding human excrement. It suggests ( and I could misunderstand) folks have an unrealistic idea of how ones waste is managed by others. Flushing only means someone else is ... “handling “ the issue. Multiply that be how “someone else” is handling all aspects if “your” waste - from paper, plastic, old clothes, old cars/boats, old or no longer working this, that, and the next thing... and there emerges an answer to why out planet, including oceans, are groaning under the burden of human waste and garbage. Dealing w one’s waste can be an mind opening experience. ( It’s likely this post opens me up to a ... shitload ... of scorn and accusations if sanctimony etc., so... let the games begin, eh?)

[smbdyiam2]

Originally Posted by pembquist

I am impressed by the length of this thread on poo. I'll tell you what I see, thin skins and contempt, not a winning combination for a calm exchange of ideas let alone factual information. Anyway, I have pretty limited experience but so far what has worked for me is a homemade crap and pee separator, copying one of the simple commercial offerings. I don't ascribe any moral superiority to handling your poo one way or another beyond the obvious keep it out of the bay/river/NDZ. (Honestly I don't think hardly anybody does but I do think a lot of people think the OTHER guy does.) I personally do not know that a wet system is unworkable, my Cape Dory 28 had a Jabsco and a retrofitted bag holding tank and it was just gross, so I chucked the bag and hoses. I considered building/buying a holding tank and getting a Lavac but I thought I would give the the waterless system a whirl as it basically cost nothing and didn't take much effort. So far it has been mainly used as a ladies pee receptacle, (I personally piss in a 32oz yogurt cup and toss,) and has maybe a couple logs in it since it's start date of a couple years ago. Doesn't smell. I definitely won't try installing a holding tank etc. until I see this "system" not working for me.

I do think some people might get freaked out by the absence of a more conventional flush and were my boat intended to be a sex palace I definitely would go for something that resembles a home flusher to avoid a mood killing bucket of peat moss. If I were rich and it was all a matter of just paying somebody to deal with the whole thing on a bigger boat I would probably go for the wet system, but if it stank somebody would be getting fired.

So some dump overboard but they think every one else does not, Some use water and holding tanks cause they have the money. And some use the water holding tanks to empress others?
I use composting toilet because===no money==small boat(23')==not trying to empress( I don't want anyone else on my boat except me and wife)==have tried for years to leave small footprints(back packing in Colo. 60-70's was called hippies)==and least amount of work.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by susgal

. . . folks have an unrealistic idea of how ones waste is managed by others. Flushing only means someone else is ... “handling “ the issue. . . .

I dunno about that. The only ones who "handle" my waste are fish, and I think they like it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by susgal

...Flushing only means someone else is ... “handling “ the issue. Multiply that be how “someone else” is handling all aspects if “your” waste - from paper, plastic, old clothes, old cars/boats, old or no longer working this, that, and the next thing... and there emerges an answer to why out planet, including oceans, are groaning under the burden of human waste and garbage. ...

You're expressing this a bit stronger than I, but I get your point. I often say, one of the downsides (for some) of these composting heads is that one has to become more intimate with your own outflows.

But this is a truism throughout the whole cruising experience; one is forced to become more intimate with all the systems that support our lives. From water and fuel requirements, to food, electricity, and the endless spare parts and bits we need, the cruising life forces a certain kind of awareness.

My last land house was heated by wood. Cutting, splitting, hauling and maintaining a woodstove gave me a rather intimate awareness of the effort needed to heat a small home in the deep of a Canadian winter. In the past, and for most of us, the biggest effort required is reaching for the thermostat. Much like flush-and-forget, this masks all the real effort required.

Of course, making life easier is a key part of this project called civillization. And I'm far from a Luddite when it comes to the use of effort-saving tools. But I do like living with an awareness of the effort required to generate my electricity, to manage my water and food requirements, to maintain my floating home to a level that keeps me safe.

And yes, to bring it back to poop, in some way I appreciate the composting head for the same awareness-raising reasons (although that's not why I made the switch ).

[smbdyiam2]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I dunno about that. The only ones who "handle" my waste are fish, and I think they like it.

was over working on my toy and thought of this. The only person that has not handled some one else's waste==Has never been a parent, swam anyplace except their private pool, never been in service, never cleaned home, car, or lent or borrowed anything. Basically anytime you touch anything that someone else has touched you just handled some of their waste. Even the beaches here get closed couple times a year due to contaminations . Feces in water. Not all from boats . Most is sewages overflows.
Strange close beaches because of feces. Never heard of any body of water being closed from urine.

reading above quote I was thinking "He never uses city sewage?" every thing goes over board? That is ick factor.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by smbdyiam2

was over working on my toy and thought of this. The only person that has not handled some one else's waste==Has never been a parent, swam anyplace except their private pool, never been in service, never cleaned home, car, or lent or borrowed anything. Basically anytime you touch anything that someone else has touched you just handled some of their waste. Even the beaches here get closed couple times a year due to contaminations . Feces in water. Not all from boats . Most is sewages overflows.
Strange close beaches because of feces. Never heard of any body of water being closed from urine.

reading above quote I was thinking "He never uses city sewage?" every thing goes over board? That is ick factor.

thing isa in small quantities body wastes put into the ocean become inert in short order. Its the large discharges that cause the problems.
One of the most prolific components of seawater is chloride. A natural disinfectant.
However with how humans think its easier to regulate everyone the same regardless of discharge quantity potential.

[pembquist]

Originally Posted by smbdyiam2

So some dump overboard but they think every one else does not, Some use water and holding tanks cause they have the money. And some use the water holding tanks to empress others?

Sorry reading what I wrote I see it isn't correct/clear what I meant. When I said "I don't think hardly anyone does...." I was referring to having a sense of moral superiority because of the toilet set up on your boat what ever it is. I meant to be describing the way people respond to a bland statement about why someone likes there particular toilet set up with quasi anger as if someone had just called them morally inferior because they use a different set up.

The second part there about some because of money and some to impress, that is not what I intended to say. I am sure there are diverse reasons why people use whatever. I am only talking about myself. If I was to make a guess why other people have their toilets set up the way they are I would start and end with: because that is the way the boat came. Beyond that I don't know.

[Phantom Jim]

Concerning marine sanitation devices, one needs to select which one he (she) has based on (1) cruising style, (2) fit into the boat, (3) affordability, (4) personal preference. The MSDs discussed are all legitimate, workable toilets. The pump out/disposal/dumping should be in a legal and responsible manner. Be a good boat neighbor and treat other boaters as you wish to be treated.

[pembquist]

Originally Posted by susgal

The long (and illogical?) arm of the law. Apparently, one can pee in water and one can pee overboard directly into water. One may not, however, pee in a container then pour that pee directly into water. ( I’m in Northern California and things may be different elsewhere...) I’m guessing this seeming illogic is to discourage folks from pouring “excessive” amounts of pee stored in containers into water ...

I keep hearing things that suggest this but I haven't found anything concrete searching. Up thread there was a little back and forth that referred to urine collection at a marina and I hadn't heard of that before, I'm in the PNW. I can see why you wouldn't want to dump a festering bottle of 6 month old pee into the water but do you have any links to rules or ideally law that could clarify this? I am not worried about being arrested for peeing in a cup but I am curious whether separate urine collection is recognized in law or if everyone is generalizing from holding tank and treatment systems. Thanks.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by pembquist

I keep hearing things that suggest this but I haven't found anything concrete searching. Up thread there was a little back and forth that referred to urine collection at a marina and I hadn't heard of that before, I'm in the PNW. I can see why you wouldn't want to dump a festering bottle of 6 month old pee into the water but do you have any links to rules or ideally law that could clarify this? I am not worried about being arrested for peeing in a cup but I am curious whether separate urine collection is recognized in law or if everyone is generalizing from holding tank and treatment systems. Thanks.

any container you place human bodily waste into is automatically now designated as a type 3 MSD ( holding tank ) I know it just doesn't make sense but a red solo cup does count.:-):-)

[pembquist]

Originally Posted by newhaul

any container you place human bodily waste into is automatically now designated as a type 3 MSD ( holding tank ) I know it just doesn't make sense but a red solo cup does count.:-):-)

Please don't take this as questioning your assertion but do you have any links to where it says this in regulation or in brochure ware from the government? I really want to see it.

Thanks

Edit:
I found this: Vessels without installed toilets must dispose of any collected sewage from portable toilets or other containment devices at facilities in a manner that complies with state law (ashore in proper facility). Don’t dump it in the water.

From this:https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shoreli...discharge-zone

The question this raises is: Is the bladder a containment device????

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by pembquist

Please don't take this as questioning your assertion but do you have any links to where it says this in regulation or in brochure ware from the government? I really want to see it.

Thanks

Edit:
I found this: Vessels without installed toilets must dispose of any collected sewage from portable toilets or other containment devices at facilities in a manner that complies with state law (ashore in proper facility). Don’t dump it in the water.

From this:https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shoreli...discharge-zone

The question this raises is: Is the bladder a containment device????

From the USCG rules as stated in the CFRs defining what a Type III MSD is. Basically, it's anything that doesn't leak. You don't break a law until you toss something overboard.

BTW, while I do not have a citation, my understanding of why it's legal to piss over the side but not empty a piss bucket overboard is because pee normally gets mixed with other stuff and thus loses its inert properties. But I've never actually seen a credible citation that peeing overboard doesn't break any sanitation laws (vs indecency laws)

From the USCG Website:

[MSD] Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by pembquist

Please don't take this as questioning your assertion but do you have any links to where it says this in regulation or in brochure ware from the government? I really want to see it.

Thanks

Edit:
I found this: Vessels without installed toilets must dispose of any collected sewage from portable toilets or other containment devices at facilities in a manner that complies with state law (ashore in proper facility). Don’t dump it in the water.

From this:https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shoreli...discharge-zone

The question this raises is: Is the bladder a containment device????

as far as the discharge rules are concerned no it is not. It is internal to the body.

[AA3JY]

A word from my Latrine Queen..

“We have had an Air Head for three years. We cruise about 6 to 8 months a year. You smell nothing aboard. The Air Head urine tank has a sight window so we have never had an overflow situation. The toilet seat has a gasket for seat and lid. The vent hose has screens to keep out bugs. We have zero smell from our composting head. I do use the yellow 409 spray to clean the bowl after use rather than vinegar. I also put about a tablespoon of Oxyclean in the pee tank with a spritz of the 409. The urine tank is enough for about four days and aging urine can get pretty pungent. This oxyclean and 409 concoction keeps all sweet smelling plus the urine tank stays white rather than turning brown over time.
The solids tank seems like a small drum of peat moss when it is dumped. It is double bagged and goes in the dumpster. I guess I am surprised when I hear of harbors banning composting heads since dumping urine into a toilet seems pretty safe. Placing double bagged desiccated solids seems no worse than baby (or adult for that matter) diapers in a dumpster. And of course dog owners have been adding pet feces to trash cans for years.
We have had traditional plumbed marine heads. We have had foul hoses, failed joker valves and fecal overload and plugged hoses. The Air Head has none of these issues. It was not an inexpensive addition but has been a good solution for this two person crew.”

[Phantom Jim]

May I inquire how you dump the solid tank? Do you move the entire toilet outside the boat to dump the solid contents or do you remove the top, then remove the bottom? Do you dump into the bag inside the boat or outside the boat?

How much is the interior of your boat exposed to the waste?