Composting head vs classic head

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I've heard of these non-smelling wet toilets. I've yet to be on a boat with one...hmmm...

So what are you implying?

That Peggy Hall, a frequent contributor to this forum, and a leading expert on marine sanitation systems, and how to avoid marine head odours, is a liar or a fake?

Shame!

If one follows her advice, they can easily make and maintain a Type III MSD, virtually odourless (at far less cost in time, effort, and money than complete removal and replacement with an "Effluent Separating Toilet").

No affiliation or monetary interest…

https://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-B.../dp/1892399784

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I would LOVE to remove my holding tank for our marine head but haven't because my understanding is that it's required, and having a composting toilet won't exempt me from that requirement for the marine head.

Know any exceptions or loopholes?

Grace, composting heads are classified as Type III MSDs. There is no loophole or exception needed. Perhaps our rambling expert could take note of this before he spreads more misinformation.

BTW Rod, read my list of reasons to move to a composting head. Nowhere does it say or suggest I "enjoy" being more intimate with my outflows. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THIS NONSENSE. If you take the time to read, you'd see that it is a conscious choice based on a balance of postives/negatives, just like with all cruising choices.

People can look at these factors and decide for themselves where the balance lies for them. You can remain a "fanboy" of standard marine heads. I will continue to share my knowledge, which is based on actual experience cruising with one.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I would LOVE to remove my holding tank for our marine head but haven't because my understanding is that it's required, and having a composting toilet won't exempt me from that requirement for the marine head.



Know any exceptions or loopholes?

A US-based person should correct me if I get the details wrong, but IIRC the rule is that you must contain the output of the head on board. A composting toilet meets the rule because it is essentially two small holding tanks. Same in concept as a porta potty, and those are definitely legal.

You don’t actually need a holding tank with a regular wet head in general, but in no discharge zones you must lock the throughhull that discharges from the head to the ocean. Effectively this means you cannot use a wet head without a holding tank as there would be nowhere to empty it. And I believe the rule is that you must have at least one working head.

So if you only have one head, a composting head or a wet head with holding tank are equally legal. If you have two heads, one composting head and one direct discharge wet head with no holding tank (and a locked throughull) is also a legal solution.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

As I read Mike's post, occurred to me the schism here might be along the lines of those who seek comforts-of-home while cruising vs simplicity and austerity. Starting 30-years ago or so, sailors started having choices in the degree of creature comforts - new builds stopped aligning to race-boat dimensions (e.g. the pinched transoms of IOR rule), and where built to sell at boat show docks were sumptuous interiors rule.

Sailors are catching up to powerboaters in their desire for onboard baubles (limiting factor being bank account). Nowhere is the tension between simplicity/complexity more evident than the holy-war that always erupts over compost heads.

Perhaps... although it's always a matter of degree. My cruising vessel is incredibly comfortable. It has all the luxuries I currently need or want, yet some would consider it lacking in some areas. It's all relative, I suppose.

Personally, I think the emotional reaction we see from some on these composting threads is due to the so-called "ick" factor. As I said, most of us grew up with a flush-and-forget mindset. It's the same mindset most of us in the rich, developed world have towards almost all waste products; we toss it and someone else takes care of it for us.

This casual attitude to the resources needed to sustain our lives is one that a cruising lifestyle breaks down. It forces people to be more aware of what it takes to live our comfortable lives, which I think is a good thing.

BTW, the "ick" response is perfectly natural. It's an evolutionary response bread into us so we avoid poop. Feces can carry harmful pathogens, so it makes sense we've all got this disgust instinct around it. And human feces carries human pathogens, which is why we all have a stronger disgust response to human poop compared to other animals.

Luckily we've also evolved a big brain that can rationalize and override our emotional "ick" response when the positives outweigh the negatives -- at least some of us can .

[sailorboy1]

Flush it and pump it. No ick involved

On other hand you can bag it and bottle it

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Composting heads are classified as Type III MSDs. There is no loophole or exception needed.

Absolutely true - From the USCG Website:

[MSD] Type III is a device that prevents the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage. This type of device is typically a holding tank and may include other types of technology including incineration, recirculation, and composting.

If any marina balks at a recreational boat with a composting head, would point out that it is a USCG approved MSD Type III sanitation device and is specifically stated as such in 33 CFR Part 159, the relevant section of the CFRs.

Turns out the Bureau of Land Mgmt (BLM) has a dog in this fight as there are several wilderness areas where visitors must pack out all refuse. They have several commercial recommendations, most of which are essentially a bag that is packed-out. Some state they are approved for disposal in a landfill. I guess many rock climbers and kayakers use them in order to gain access to certain designated wilderness areas.

My takeaway? It's a personal decision on what type of head you want. The anti-CH folks toss a lot of FUD factor (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) with wild statements and no citation of fact. Some/many people find the heads repulsive even though they've probably never seen one let alone used one - they certainly are different to anything we westerners have become accustomed to. Certainly their prerogative, though would encourage folks to keep an open mind - sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised. As someone once said "Was a brave person who first ate an oyster."

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Personally, I think the emotional reaction we see from some on these composting threads is due to the so-called "ick" factor. As I said, most of us grew up with a flush-and-forget mindset. It's the same mindset most of us in the rich, developed world have towards almost all waste products; we toss it and someone else takes care of it for us.

This casual attitude to the resources needed to sustain our lives is one that a cruising lifestyle breaks down. It forces people to be more aware of what it takes to live our comfortable lives, which I think is a good thing.

BTW, the "ick" response is perfectly natural. It's an evolutionary response bread into us so we avoid poop. Feces can carry harmful pathogens, so it makes sense we've all got this disgust instinct around it. And human feces carries human pathogens, which is why we all have a stronger disgust response to human poop compared to other animals.

Luckily we've also evolved a big brain that can rationalize and override our emotional "ick" response when the positives outweigh the negatives -- at least some of us can .

Sorry to be sciency, but emotions are generally the physiologic response of being perturbed, more specifically when one's internal sense of reality (i.e. appreciation of environmental factors under consideration) is being challenged (e.g. by gaslighting statements). So if someone claims better brains/analytical skill drawing a different conclusion than you do, when looking at the same thing, then cognitive dissonance/emotions is what you get. In other words, it's not the "ick" factor that turns people off to "composting" toilets in these threads, but moreso the haughty attitude of environmental (or whatever) superiority that gets people who don't have the same precise perspective...emotional on the subject.

My experience includes using a bidet, seeing many backsides that use a bidet, and seeing many sides that do not use a bidet. Frankly my "ick" factor is more with non-bidet use than whichever toilet a person uses. Big brains doesn't have to relegate one to having a smeared backside, cutting down trees, and putting their crap in a plastic bag in a dumpster to feel most in harmony with the universe. <---paragraph that is overtly reality questioning=openly gaslighting...and also clearly biased an not an absolute fair dichotomization

My multivariate analysis of "flush it and forget it" includes what happens when frankly non-composted human waste gets dumped on land, includes the cradle to grave environmental footprint of every conceivable factor involved (including kW hours burned in these threads). Putting it in the dumpster is illegal (based on good science) in many jurisdiction, and legal (based on policies that reduce the number of times the govt complaint line rings) in other jurisdictions. Both so-called composting toilets (that don't really compost) and traditional marine heads have their pros and cons. To call either clearly superior is folly and devoid of critical analysis. To cite big brains and "increasing numbers" to suggest something is positive is to use an ancient tactic to sway folks by provoking cognitive insecurity, who otherwise tend to forget that because of simple population growth "increasing numbers" is a quite pointless...point. A very famous politician in the modern era utilizes precisely these tactics with astounding effect.

Otherwise, as astutely cited above, better to recognize the genius of and instead of the tyranny of or. Horses of courses. If someone wants to claim that one horse is superior...well then...they are begging to have their foibles pointed out to them (what is a natural "positive for the community, uncomfortable for the individual" human behavioral trait).

[Pegu Club]

Every time I see a thread about marine head issues, I am so very happy we removed the marine head on our boat and installed a CH upon purchase. We have never had an issue with properly disposing the solids or liquids, it is in fact quite easy to deal with. Hell people wander about picking up their pets waste on a daily basis when “walking the dog”’ and have no issues handling animal excrement. So the idea that a CH is icky is quite funny by comparison. Like all things with humans, to each his/her own, to the OP, if it suits your needs do it, you will have no regrets, especially when you read/ hear about a not so funny joker valve or other marine head bit that failed for what ever reason and needs replacing... jmo

Fair winds,

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Singularity

Sorry to be sciency, but emotions are generally the physiologic response of being perturbed, more specifically when one's internal sense of reality (i.e. appreciation of environmental factors under consideration) is being challenged (e.g. by gaslighting statements). So if someone claims better brains/analytical skill drawing a different conclusion than you do, when looking at the same thing, then cognitive dissonance/emotions is what you get.

Sorry, but that's neither what "sciencey people" say emotions are, nor is this the definition of cognitive dissonance.

The evolutionary disgust response humans have to feces is well known and well studied. Shall I point you to some of the research?

Originally Posted by Singularity

In other words, it's not the "ick" factor that turns people off to "composting" toilets in these threads, but moreso the haughty attitude of environmental (or whatever) superiority that gets people who don't have the same precise perspective...emotional on the subject.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I've never claimed composting heads are more environmentally superior. I have said that operating one makes you more aware of what is required to manage your own personal effluent. How you recieve this is up to you. It is not meant to be "haughty" or sound superior.

Originally Posted by Singularity

... Both so-called composting toilets (that don't really compost) and traditional marine heads have their pros and cons. To call either clearly superior is folly and devoid of critical analysis.

This is the only thing you've said which is correct. And I agree, as I also have written.

Please indicate where I've said composters are clearly superior. I have said that based on my own analysis, the pros outweigh the cons for me. I've also said other people can look at the situation and come to a different conclusion.

Originally Posted by Singularity

To cite big brains and "increasing numbers" to suggest something is positive is to use an ancient tactic to sway folks by provoking cognitive insecurity, who otherwise tend to forget that because of simple population growth "increasing numbers" is a quite pointless...point. A very famous politician in the modern era utilizes precisely these tactics with astounding effect.

Sorry if my attempt at being somewhat lighthearted about this. "Big brains" is my euphemism for our ability to reason rationally. Homo Sapiens have evolved the capacity to not merely be driven by emotion. I don't know what the "increasing numbers" quote refers to, except perhaps when I referenced the poll which shows about 23% of resondents said they have a composter on board. I speculate the numbers are on the increase.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

BTW Rod, read my list of reasons to move to a composting head. Nowhere does it say or suggest I "enjoy" being more intimate with my outflows. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THIS NONSENSE...

snip

Please stop using "Strawman Arguments".

No where, did I claim that YOU said this.

(And more correctly, no where did I claim YOU posted it.)

That you enjoy owning and operating an "Effluent Separating Toilet" more than a Type III MSD for marina pump out or legal overboard discharge, is my logical conclusion based on the choice you made for your boat, the posts you have made in this and other threads, and your promotion of these devices to others.

Given a choice of various alternatives, it is highly unusual for any person to choose the option they "prefer" or "enjoy" less.

The very reason, our boat, has a type III MSD designed for marina facility pump out, is that we "prefer" and "enjoy" this option more than the alternatives considered, especially those requiring the frequent handling and disposal of small containers of bio and eco hazardous materials, such as is necessary with a typical "Effluent Separating Toilet".

That Simple.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

snip

Please stop using "Strawman Arguments".

No where, did I claim that YOU said this.

(And more correctly, no where did I claim YOU posted it.)

That you enjoy owning and operating an "Effluent Separating Toilet" more than a Type III MSD for marina pump out or legal overboard discharge, is my logical conclusion based on the choice you made for your boat, the posts you have made in this and other threads, and your promotion of these devices to others.

Given a choice of various alternatives, it is highly unusual for any person to choose the option they "prefer" or "enjoy" less.

The very reason, our boat, has a type III MSD designed for marina facility pump out, is that we "prefer" and "enjoy" this option more than the alternatives considered, especially those requiring the frequent handling and disposal of small containers of bio and eco hazardous materials, such as is necessary with a typical "Effluent Separating Toilet".

That Simple.

Once again, composters ARE classified as Type III MSDs, the same as your system.

I do not "enjoy operating" a composter. I prefer it over the alternatives. "Prefer" is not a synonym for "enjoy." It would be a pretty odd person who "enjoys" dealing with their own shyte.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

snip

Please stop using "Strawman Arguments".

No where, did I claim that YOU said this.

(And more correctly, no where did I claim YOU posted it.)

That you enjoy owning and operating an "Effluent Separating Toilet" more than a Type III MSD for marina pump out or legal overboard discharge, is my logical conclusion based on the choice you made for your boat, the posts you have made in this and other threads, and your promotion of these devices to others.

Given a choice of various alternatives, it is highly unusual for any person to choose the option they "prefer" or "enjoy" less.

The very reason, our boat, has a type III MSD designed for marina facility pump out, is that we "prefer" and "enjoy" this option more than the alternatives considered, especially those requiring the frequent handling and disposal of small containers of bio and eco hazardous materials, such as is necessary with a typical "Effluent Separating Toilet".

That Simple.

The conclusion might be logical but I do believe it misses the bigger picture. The bigger picture being that the way we live at present is utterly unsustainable. Whether it is flying, driving, eating unlimited amounts of animal products, chucking plastic rubbish and 'other waste' into the sea as if they're fish food, etc, you name it, it's not going to sustain us much longer.

I don't think I would install a CH on my boat purely for the enjoyment factor. But I would do it (and at home too) to investigate and explore alternative means of living on this planet. And that might even be enjoyable in its own right. Just like I now only(mainly) travel by train, have given up on meat and most dairy products and try and buy as little single use plastic as possible. And the funny thing is, my life did not even get less enjoyable, it actually has improved if I may be so free.

Fact is, if we don't start challenging or at least questioning a bit how we all go through life, we can be quite sure that the future will look bleak indeed. Maybe Mike won't agree with this slightly more extreme viewpoint, but that is the rough idea I read into his argumentation.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

The very reason, our boat, has a type III MSD designed for marina facility pump out, is that we "prefer" and "enjoy" this option more than the alternatives considered, especially those requiring the frequent handling and disposal of small containers of bio and eco hazardous materials, such as is necessary with a typical "Effluent Separating Toilet"

Human waste is classified as "Biowaste." Not haz-mat suit biohazard. This is primarily used in hospitals as a mechanism to classify the many, many different types of waste encountered. I have no idea what eco-hazard is, but will leave the semantics argument be.


Mostly, I agree with you - I have little desire to handle this stuff either, especially if it's not my own, followed closely by a loved one. I posted a CF thread from 2018 that asked "How often do you rebuild your head?" and received over 50 unique responses. Most were once a year. Very few were more than 2+ years. I can tell you from experience that few people keep ahead of their heads and only work on them when needed. It ain't pretty - if you think handling a bag of desiccated poop (which in some ways isn't much different than going to a pump-out - not uncommon to get dribbles on your decks) is a "bio-hazard," than working on a failed head/holding tank/through-hull/macerator/hoses is, in comparison, a Chernobyl-esque nuclear disaster. Gallons of effluent in the bilge and overboard, tools, hands, clothes, etc. etc. etc. If the respondents to the CF thread were honest, it's unfortunately not a rare event.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

The conclusion might be logical but I do believe it misses the bigger picture. The bigger picture being that the way we live at present is utterly unsustainable. Whether it is flying, driving, eating unlimited amounts of animal products, chucking plastic rubbish and 'other waste' into the sea as if they're fish food, etc, you name it, it's not going to sustain us much longer.

I don't think I would install a CH on my boat purely for the enjoyment factor. But I would do it (and at home too) to investigate and explore alternative means of living on this planet. And that might even be enjoyable in its own right. Just like I now only(mainly) travel by train, have given up on meat and most dairy products and try and buy as little single use plastic as possible. And the funny thing is, my life did not even get less enjoyable, it actually has improved if I may be so free.

Fact is, if we don't start challenging or at least questioning a bit how we all go through life, we can be quite sure that the future will look bleak indeed. Maybe Mike won't agree with this slightly more extreme viewpoint, but that is the rough idea I read into his argumentation.

On the general point I am completely with you; the way we are living on this planet is unsustainable. It's part of the reason I've gone cruising -- to reduce my personal impact on this planet.

But with regard to the use of composting heads on boats, I don't think they are necessarily better, or worse, for the environment. I think it all depends on how the final product is processed. If the material is allowed to finish going to compost, or otherwise biologically processed, then I think it can be a net benefit. Depositing it into a landfill is likely not a good outcome, although I don't think it is particularly bad either.

All critters on this planet must have some impact on our environment. I don't think we need to apologize for this. But we do have the option of trying to limit our impacts. Becoming more aware of what is required to manage our personal effluents is one step towards reducing our impacts.

But "being green" is not one of my reasons for choosing a composter.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Human waste is classified as "Biowaste." Not haz-mat suit biohazard. This is primarily used in hospitals as a mechanism to classify the many, many different types of waste encountered. I have no idea what eco-hazard is, but will leave the semantics argument be.

Inland waters

1. Pull up to a marina service dock.
2. Tell the dock hand, "We need a pump out."
3. When complete, pay the bill (unless free).
4. Flip the dock hand a tip.

All of your bio hazardous waste...

By definition, bio hazardous waste is any waste containing infectious material. Among many other infectious diseases, human feces can carry:
C. diff
cholera
E coli
Dysentery
Norovirus
Hepatitis A and E
Giardia
Pinworms
All of these diseases are dangerous, even fatal, so human feces is a biohazard. However, human fecal matter is not classified as medical waste so the additional regulations on how a state handles the material varies widely. (Georgia’s Biohazard Waste Regulations)

...will be distributed for municipal treatment and disposal in a safe manner, as demanded by the EPA (governing US inland and territorial waters).

Beyond the 3 mile limit...

1. Remove the padlock.
2. Open the valve.
3. Close the valve when the sanitation tank is empty.
4. Put the padlock back on.

This practice, determined by the best scientific minds on this subject, to create negligible hazard for humankind.

What do "Effluent Separating Toilet" Users due beyond the 3 mile limit?

Carry the buckets through the boat (including galley) and try to dump them over the stern rail without dumping them all over, in a pitching sea?

Yeah, I'll stick with my preferred solution.

On land, I would certainly prefer other boaters not stuff there dangerous bacteria and virus infected feces into refuse containers at the marinas we visit. Especially if we are paying to use the facilities and they are not.

I believe proponents of these devices are going to give all boaters a bad name. It's only a manner of time before the regulations come forward, and ^%$^ it up.

Shame.