Composting head vs classic head

[Minggat]

"While they may not "love" it, it is apparently more "enjoyable" to them, or logically, they would not have made the decision to do so."


This is just funny.


More enjoyable? Really?


How about just hating it less?


Do you walk your dog, and your favorite part of that is picking up the fresh poop?


Maybe putting fresh dog poop in the dumpster is legal, where desiccated or even composted human poop is not. I dunno. But the plastic that you pick fresh pet droppings with EVERYDAY, is likely more of a environmental issue than the occasional plastic bag (formerly single use, now double) that I might drop in the dumpster, if I happen to be out of paper bags.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Minggat

"While they may not "love" it, it is apparently more "enjoyable" to them, or logically, they would not have made the decision to do so."


This is just funny.


More enjoyable? Really?


How about just hating it less?


Do you walk your dog, and your favorite part of that is picking up the fresh poop?

It’s a comparison I guess. We have dealt with way less raw sewage with our composter than our traditional marine cesspool. Or maybe it would be safe to say the dealings with raw sewage with our composter has been way less catastrophic than with the traditional.
Dumping the urine jug is something we do every morning while we walk the dog and it in no way grossed me out. In fact the odor put out by the pumpouts up wind of us are far more obnoxious than the odor while we dump our urine.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by smj

Geeez Rod, first sign of losing is name calling?
The only challenge we have had is you stating that polyester resin was equal to or superior to epoxy resin in the repairs of wooden boat construction. You were and are wrong.

Wrong again.

The most obvious sign an opponent believes they are losing a debate is when they attempt to switch to another subject they feel they may have a better chance of winning.

I’m surprised you chose that one.

Your statement has no semblance of my position on that subject.

IiRC, your position was that epoxy resin was the only appropriate resin to use to repair FRP boats, and got upset when I and many other industry professionals corrected you.

But this thread is about “Effluent Separating Toilets” vs Type III MSDs designed for discharge at pump out stations, so let’s stick to the subject shall we? ;-)

[smj]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Wrong again.



The most obvious sign an opponent believes they are losing a debate is when they attempt to switch to another subject they feel they may have a better chance of winning.



I’m surprised you chose that one.



Your statement has no semblance of my position on that subject.



IiRC, your position was that epoxy resin was the only appropriate resin to use to repair FRP boats, and got upset when I and many other industry professionals corrected you.



But this thread is about “Effluent Separating Toilets” vs Type III MSDs designed for discharge at pump out stations, so let’s stick to the subject shall we? ;-)

Ramble on Rod, ramble on

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I've bought a few different brands over the years. I can't say I've noticed any real difference, except around how they are packaged. I've bought from a few Amazon sources (Smart, Growit). Last purchase was from a Canadian company called Millennium Soils Coir. This seemed quite good.

Grace, can you identify the four you've tried, and give us your top pick?

I have no idea what brand I use, it came with the boat and somewhere along the line I found a plastic bag full of it beside the dumpster. What I have noticed is that turning the handle to rotate the stuff in the head is more important than anything else. I would also point out I did make a couple of mods to my Nature's Way. The original computer fan was a 50mm fan and it failed (sorta it was more like an electric problem) so I replaced it with a 90mm fan I bought of eBay (got six for $US10 and gave a couple away to a friend with a similar boat). I also changed the hard wired hookup. I used the cigar lighter outlet in the head to plug in a USB fitting with a light so I could see if the fan was working.

I have helped some folks with conventional head problems; that was enough to convince me a composting head was the way to go. Not to mention on a multihull where weight is a consideration removing a holding tank and heavy head and pump was a no brainer.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

.

But this thread is about “Effluent Separating Toilets” vs Type III MSDs designed for discharge at pump out stations, so let’s stick to the subject shall we? ;-)

no it is not . Both are type 3 MSD systems .

It is about the different choices between a composting head and a classic head.

And if you actually knew anything correctly about a composting head you would know that the head is just the first component of a 3 step system . ( the municipal landfill satisfies the other 2 components
I included a link to Joe's site in case you needed a refresher . I can also forward a per copy of his book if you need a copy to study .
That will hopefully bring you up to date on how 80% of the population of the planet deals with their urine and feces.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I have no idea what brand I use, it came with the boat and somewhere along the line I found a plastic bag full of it beside the dumpster. What I have noticed is that turning the handle to rotate the stuff in the head is more important than anything else. I would also point out I did make a couple of mods to my Nature's Way. The original computer fan was a 50mm fan and it failed (sorta it was more like an electric problem) so I replaced it with a 90mm fan I bought of eBay (got six for $US10 and gave a couple away to a friend with a similar boat). I also changed the hard wired hookup. I used the cigar lighter outlet in the head to plug in a USB fitting with a light so I could see if the fan was working.

Good point about agitation. I give mine a rotation whenever I'm in the head, even if I haven't used the feces bin. Just helps with the dissication and composting, as with normal composters.

I've thought about increasing the default fan with a slightly larger one. So far I haven't needed it, but I have no doubt a slightly larger one would make things even better. You've inspired me to look at it again.

How did you mount the larger fan? Did you use the existing fan housing, or did you make a new connection? Any pics?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Good point about agitation. I give mine a rotation whenever I'm in the head, even if I haven't used the feces bin. Just helps with the dissication and composting, as with normal composters.

I've thought about increasing the default fan with a slightly larger one. So far I haven't needed it, but I have no doubt a slightly larger one would make things even better. You've inspired me to look at it again.

How did you mount the larger fan? Did you use the existing fan housing, or did you make a new connection? Any pics?

C-head recommended 2 fans spaced apart. We spaced ours in between an 8” piece of pvc. Not sure if this helps flow, but if one dies the other is still producing. One fan draws nothing, two fans draw 2x nothing.

[Minggat]

Originally Posted by smj

C-head recommended 2 fans spaced apart. We spaced ours in between an 8” piece of pvc. Not sure if this helps flow, but if one dies the other is still producing. One fan draws nothing, two fans draw 2x nothing.

About 5 years now with my C-head. Bought a fan but never installed it.

I immediately noticed that with the lid on (C-Heads way of addressing the ick factor), an awful lot of humidity was trapped inside. Stowed the lid and closed the toilet seat. That provided enough space for humidity to escape.

Lot's of potential buyers worried about the smell, might be put off if C-Head didn't mention something about the fans and vents. Trapping humidity of course will defeat the desiccating process. So the fans and vent hoses and associated deck vents can be an aid, but I would contend that they are not required for the C-Head. For the units with the trap doors, the fans and all are pretty much required.

I did have a conversation with Sandy (C-Head company owner). he is a big believer in the KISS principle.

Having said all that, one day I will install the fan to help move drying air into the solids bin as an aid for the drying process. No hoses of deck vents.

Regarding media;
Coconut coir is fine. Easy storage. Compressed sawdust pellets work fine too. Cheaper, compact, and more easily available in feed stores or pet supply shops.

Add some water for breaking up any compressed media, then store it in a pillowcase for drying it back out again.

[Singularity]

A long-winded diatribe on why marine-head advocates don't write much...and why at least some pro composting head advocates...advocate so strongly (not per se including Mike, but responding to his earlier message):

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry, but that's neither what "sciencey people" say emotions are, nor is this the definition of cognitive dissonance.

Festinger wrote the book on cognitive dissonance (really, rebranded thesis-antithesis-synthesis from Hegel). When thesis=antithesis, there is no CD (i.e. neurohormonal response causing an 'emotional' perturbation) so no learning/synthesis. Cult people (Festinger's research subjects) didn't have the "emotional" response one would expect with [their prophecy] being proven wrong...an abnormal "emotion" response...and no learning (i.e. change in behavior).
Emotion didn't exist as a word >600 years ago; people used to say "agitation" or similar word describing anxiety/perturbation. Emotion is the stuff of novels and song, behavior is the stuff of what people actually do.

The evolutionary disgust response humans have to feces is well known and well studied. Shall I point you to some of the research?

The science of disgust is ancient. Scrupulosity to the Greeks, Original Sin to certain religious sects, Lady Macbeth syndrome to Shakespeare, anal-retentive to Freud, etc, plus recent fMR findings. What is ironic is that non-CH adopters in this thread have been accused of being poo averse while the ancient theory suggests that people who are predisposed excessively thinking about self/nest/environmental maintenance...are sort of insecure about the safety/cleanliness of the environment in the first place.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I've never claimed composting heads are more environmentally superior. I have said that operating one makes you more aware of what is required to manage your own personal effluent. How you recieve this is up to you. It is not meant to be "haughty" or sound superior.

Hegel part 2: master/slave dialectic. Linking environmental status with poo handling practices is an odd couple that ordinarily will induce guilt/shame. If you think I'm kidding, consider why Prozac metabolites are found in the water table across America. "How people receive things" is predictable, or it should be.

Please indicate where I've said composters are clearly superior. I have said that based on my own analysis, the pros outweigh the cons for me. I've also said other people can look at the situation and come to a different conclusion.

I suppose I'm fundamentally responding to the high bandwith (Maslow's hammer) approach to the CH issue. Presumably we'd ask questions about cruising type, locations, souls on board, mechanical ability, etc, before saying one option "works well, lots of adopters, we can answer questions how it works." In my professional life I spent a lot of time talking people down from Plan A when plan B is more suitable, but when no one has the nerve to talk about plan B because the Plan A people are so zealotous. This is an open forum where Plan A (CH) types dominate, some of whom suggest that plan B (marine head) types are crazy, dumb, etc. How much bandwith in this thread about standard marine heads???

Sorry if my attempt at being somewhat lighthearted about this. "Big brains" is my euphemism for our ability to reason rationally. Homo Sapiens have evolved the capacity to not merely be driven by emotion.

~80% of people respond strongly to now wanting to be seen as an outsider while 2/3rds of people will kill if told do so under stress by someone in power tells them to do so. I wouldn't confuse capacity with behavioral reality, and I particularly would not ignore Socrates' lesson that people don't per se pay attention to the same things and thus can't rationalize what they ordinarily don't look at (salience theory nowadays) or even have the capacity to conceptualize/rationalize that which exists in a mental/cognitive lacuna in the first place (i.e. an unknowable unknown to the individual).

I don't know what the "increasing numbers" quote refers to, except perhaps when I referenced the poll which shows about 23% of respondents said they have a composter on board. I speculate the numbers are on the increase.

Post #4. Citing common adoption of something doesn't mean that it's the right tool for the job. To a non-CH strong advocate such citations ring as a sales pitch...and in this context here...contrarians are, again, less likely to pipe up.

[Mike OReilly]

Interesting info on C-head. I've never used one, but did seriously consider the option when making choice. I opted for Nature's Head due to the larger capacity, and then because it seemed to fit better in my existing head space (vs Air Head).

My understanding was that C-head did not require, or even recommend, active fans for the venting. I've wondered about this knowing how important it is for Nature's. But thanks to Minggat's explanation, I think I understand. Thanks.


Singularity, it's amusing that you accuse me of sounding haughty or superior while quoting Hegel, Festinger, Shakespeare and Freud, Maslow, Socrates and perhaps a few more I glossed over.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks... .

I'll just say, you should read more closely, and assume less. The things you continually accuse me of are found in your interpretations, not in my words.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

You've not been aboard ours.

Yep, another internet example...but still waiting to see one in real life.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So what are you implying?

That Peggy Hall, a frequent contributor to this forum, and a leading expert on marine sanitation systems, and how to avoid marine head odours, is a liar or a fake?

Shame!
[/URL]

Funny. All I could think of is the Game of Thrones scene where the fanatics were chanting "shame, shame, shame".

No one called her a liar...I'm sure she believes what she preaches.

Sorry but just because she proclaimed herself an expert doesn't mean I have to blindly treat everything she says as truth...particularly when my real life experience on hundreds of boats disagrees with your statements.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Yep, another internet example...but still waiting to see one in real life.

Y'all come on down - we're in Vero Beach, seemingly interminably.

Or maybe the Bahamas, if God quits laughing (we plan, God laughs)...

[alctel]

lol @ the guy claiming that composting head owners do it because they love handling their own waste and then trying to claim that building giant sewage systems for livestock makes him an expert in composting marine heads, and THEN trying to blame the airhead for virus outbreaks (despite apparently having a background nd in livestock waste, probably one of the biggest disease vectors on the planet)
Take a look at yaself, fella

I've had a natures head for 6 years, it's a great solution for 1 or 2 people, though i feel more would overload it.

It's less gross than a standard marine head/holding tank solution when they break - some of the stories are icccck

Emptying the urine is annoying, but solid disposal isn't that gross at all. Again, it looks and smells like soil. Best of all, basically no maintenance and no through-hulls.