Cruise capable, smaller boats?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

As I am researching and asking questions - hence the thread - please do explain what you mean.

To illustrate why I ask the question - go back to my 2nd point about wanting wheel steer due to ergonomics. The ergonomics I am referring to are not me getting around the cockpit, rather the operability of a tiller over extended periods of time/miles. In the way I am looking at this equation - the cockpit space is irrelevant if I can't hold up to the rigors of operating the boat. I've been down that road before - albiet in a completely different style of boat/environment (16' skiff with a 25hp motor) - but it was a tiller motor until I remoted it. So again - from an operational perspective of ergonomics - I don't like the idea of a tiller for obvious reasons if you read through what I said and understand the perspective from which I spoke. That is what I am asking for in your explanation.


How do you describe "cockpit ergonomics" and how can a wheel, contrasting to my perspective of operable ergonomics, impact that so much that it should be considered, or even viewed as an over-riding thought beyond that of ergonomics while under-way operating the boat?

On a crusing boat as has been mentioned, you'll be on autopilot most of the time.

Autopilots are much cheaper for tillers that they are for wheels, and then there's all the other obvious things about having tiller steering.

More cockpit space and if actually steering you are in a better position up closer to the companianway/hatch to be out of the wind and spray

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

I've laid a small boat over, went for a swim, and had to pull the sail and mast in the water before getting it upright and out of the water next to my dock (used the big rocks as a bit of a ramp to inch the swamped boat up). With a more enclosed hull design swamping isn't as big of a concern, but I'd rather avoid going over so far as to rinse off the sails.

Most small cruising boats like the ones in the Atom voyages list you'd have a hard time laying them over all the way

Sometimes I just let my Bristol 27 lay over as far as it wants. There's no comparison to a light weight boat at all.

And even if it does go way over I believe the AVS is lie 130-140 degrees. Somewhere in there

Capsize screen number for the B27 is like 1.71 which equates to a high AVS

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

Thanks for the thoughts on the stern thruster. I can see that helping. However, as highlighted above - the fuel consumption, first off, is my primary problem with outboard motors. Electrical generation - some motors do. There are electric start 9.9 kickers that have alternators. These are used on fishing boats. Looks like the Merc lineup has alternator power down to an 8hp. 9.9 and 8 models have 6 amps, 15hp has 12 amps.

The new 4 stroke outboards are very efficient on fuel.

I have a 5 hp 4 stroke outboard as the main auxiliary and my 6600 lb Bristol 27 and it is excellent on fuel......when I'm forced to use it.

Also, it doesn't have an alternator. All my power comes from solar. That's something to consider.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by smbdyiam2

allmand hms 23 Has all that he listed. I got mine in raffle 2 tickets at $20 each and wife won . with 2 axle trailer. every where we take it people say That is a neat looking boat. "what did it cost?" I smile .
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/Allmand

That is one adorable little boat.

How does she sail?

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by KP44

I have heard the Cascade 29 is a small, capable sailor with a one cylinder diesel.
Beam is 8' 2".

The Cascades are very solidly built boats, though the draft of the 29 is 4'9" I believe.

Cascade Yachts - Models - CS 29

[Cpt. Dolby]

Originally Posted by Bcharles123

Hey Capt!

I’m a few years out but the Seawards do look like a good boat for the Great Lakes. I’m on the Milwaukee river with my own pier but have to go under 9 bridges to get to lake Michigan. I posted earlier a question about folding masts. As far as I can tell, it’s an hour of effort.

While it would be awesome to park at home and sail anywhere in the world from my back door, If it’s too much work, plus it’s important to do absolutely correctly, I’ll just put something in the marina (in which case many many options like the OP)

But since you know about this brand, any experience about raising and lowering the mast? Doesn’t have to be fully de-rigged for trailer, just be able to pass under bridges. The lowest is 30ft when raised (boats have right of way) and 13ft when not raised. Thanks!

Using a gin pole and some running rigging, it could be lowered and raised for bridges in a matter of minutes, not hours. Usually a two person job but could be accomplished with one.

[Bcharles123]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Dolby

Using a gin pole and some running rigging, it could be lowered and raised for bridges in a matter of minutes, not hours. Usually a two person job but could be accomplished with one.

That’s great! I’m fairly strong (competitive power lifter), so maybe by myself? I would love to try it in person.!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by thomm225

1. On a cruising boat as has been mentioned, you'll be on autopilot most of the time.

2. Autopilots are much cheaper for tillers that they are for wheels, and then there's all the other obvious things about having tiller steering.

3. More cockpit space and if actually steering you are in a better position up closer to the companianway/hatch to be out of the wind and spray

While 2 is true, and 1 is also, 3 makes little sense unless you are a slave behind the wheel. When you're on autopilot, there is no need to be behind the wheel. A wheel makes the forward end of the entire cockpit open and clear.


I've sailed both. I am rarely behind the wheel except for leaving and returning to a dock.


Your boat, your choice.


Just my observations and experience.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

While 2 is true, and 1 is also, 3 makes little sense unless you are a slave behind the wheel. When you're on autopilot, there is no need to be behind the wheel. A wheel makes the forward end of the entire cockpit open and clear.


I've sailed both. I am rarely behind the wheel except for leaving and returning to a dock.


Your boat, your choice.


Just my observations and experience.

Yeah, but you forgot about how little room there is in front of a wheel on a small boat.

It's probably due to your age and lack of experience on a smaller boat in many years.

Whereas with a tiller there's tons of space. The wheel on the other hand nearly takes up the entire cockpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejcp-rCYz3U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

[jimbojonesbos]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

I've been going through some online listings just to see whats out there for boats. Maybe what I'm looking for just doesn't exist.


What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage,....

I would never consider any of those three makes as a cruise ready boat. They are all built as low cost coastal cruisers and the decades will not have made them any better quality.



Older boats are plentiful and there are more available than there are people who want them. You can pick up a tartan 30, islander 30 or C&C in that size range for maybe $5k and get an excellent quality built boat that meets your criteria list.


If you are patient 70s-80s vintage boats of very high quality are around for peanuts! You can buy a boat that was high end when know for the same price of one that was a budget buy when new.

[finefurn]

We have a 1984 Hunter 27 that fits most of your criteria, except for the gimbaled stove. I wouldn't go any small than a 27' if your planning on spending more than 3 days onboard. We typically cruise within a 120 mi radius of our home port, "Newington NH" Seriously consider a main sheet traveler as the Hunter 27 doesn't point worth a damn into the wind.

[Adelie]

The OP has discussed speeds in the 10kt+ range several times. It's not clear to me if he is expecting this sort of speed in whatever he buys. Unless he buys a MacGregor or a one of the similar designs he's not going to make that speed under power.

The OP wants trailer-able and headroom which mean a boat of 25-30' length.
He wants offshore or at least Caribbean capable which means 5000-10,000 loaded.
Such a boat will be a displacement boat that might surf in good conditions. As such anytime it motors it will be subject to hull speed limitations. Such a limitation is not absolute, but it is indicative of when increasing speed becomes prohibitive in regards to required horsepower.

Let's consider what speeds might realistically be achievable.
Assuming a 25' waterline and 7,000lb all up displacement the following speeds can be reasonably expected for given horsepower:

Kt -- Hp
8.0 - 38
7.0 - 18
6.0 - 10
5.0 - 6
4.0 - 4
3.0 - 3
Boat Speed Calculator


The Yanmar 1GM10 is rated for 9hp continuous. About $5,000 plus accessories. 157lb dry.
The Farymann W18, 7.1hp, 141lb. $(?)
Yanmar 2YM15, 13.4hp, 227lb $7k
BetaMarine 14 - 13.5hp 198lb $7k

https://www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/y...heet_1GM10.pdf
https://farymann.com/engines.php?page=18wMarine
https://www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/y...heet_2YM15.pdf
https://www.betamarinenc.com/engine/beta-14-z482/

13hp will get you about 6.5kt but at the cost of an larger motor in an already small boat and an extra 50lb weight that could go to more fuel. And an extra $2k or so. Most boats this size with an inboard will have a 1 cylinder putting out about 8-10hp. and boat speed will max out about 6kt.

Let's revisit the diesel preference.

OP stated that gasoline is much more volatile than diesel. Not so, gas is somewhat more volatile than diesel. I acknowledge that it is less safe but that doesn't make it dangerous, just less safe.
If it were dangerous, the USCG would have outlawed their use on marine pleasure vessels. That hasn't happened and it isn't even been seriously contemplated.

If the OP is worried about gasoline fumes exploding on the boat do they have similar fears about propane used for cooking and heating?

I will also acknowledge that a diesel provides more energy per gallon, about 3:2 so it provides about 50% more range per gallon of fuel for the same speed.

What are the advantages of a gas outboard?
A. The fuel is stored on deck so all fumes go overboard.
B. Increased livability below
1. Engine is not taking up prime storage space.
2. No diesel fumes in the cabin. Smelling diesel fuel get old real fast and it can be a seasickness trigger for some folks which can become a medical emergency in extremis.
C. Easier access for maintenance and repair. Pull it up into the cockpit to work on, or dockside or even take it home. Take it to the shop and save in boat repair costs An inboard is generally set under the cockpit and companionway stairs.
D. Motor dies, replace it in the short term with the dinghy outboard.
E . Fuel commonality with dinghy outboard and any generator you might bring aboard. For a boat this size the only practical generator you can get is a Honda EU2200 or similar. You might find or build something in diesel that will work but the Honda and similar is the only thing you will be able to tolerate the noise of for long. Panda makes noise insulated diesel generators but the smallest one they make is still 268lb https://fischerpanda.com/5000-generator/
F. Turning the motor to achieve lateral thrust during docking and other tight maneauvering.

A Yamaha 9.9 HighThrust model costs about $3k and weighs 114lb with the extra-long shaft model. (If you are going to get an outboard for the mothership you want a high thrust, extra thrust for the same HP, lower unit is geared differently and the prop is different.)

I get that fear is not a rational thing and if the OP is really set on an inboard then my suggestions would be:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/norsea-27
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bayfield-25

[Don C L]

Wow, that is a great summation Adelie! We oughta make that a sticky. Hey, I love cranking my buddy's diesel and chugging around in his boat. But for my smaller boat, the outboard, well, it has served me well, I must say. The only negative for me is the fuel consumption, but I have an old 2 stroke (which still runs great with good compression.) Fortunately I am not trying to motor a hundred miles, but for my 40 or 50 mile jaunts, it's fine. I'd LIKE to get one of those new-fangled 4 strokes though. And as you mention there are a number of pros to meet the cons. There is a locally well-known sailor who has a real nice modified Cal 28 (with a couple of singlehanded Transpacs under his belt) who built a special well for an outboard in the cockpit. When not in use it is lifted out, tilted, and the well gets sealed and away he goes. Pretty slick. And for those interested, those modifications to Tritons you see on Atomvoyages are pretty nice too. I still don't like the look of my engine hanging on the transom, at all, but the hoist works well and sometimes, the more you use something that works well.. the more beautiful it becomes... kinda like de Havilland Beavers...

[GreatLakeSailor]

Originally Posted by Adelie

The OP wants trailer-able and headroom which mean a boat of 25-30' length. He wants offshore or at least Caribbean capable which means 5000-10,000 loaded.
Such a boat will be a displacement boat that might surf in good conditions. As such anytime it motors it will be subject to hull speed limitations. Such a limitation is not absolute, but it is indicative of when increasing speed becomes prohibitive in regards to required horsepower.

Let's consider what speeds might realistically be achievable.
Assuming a 25' waterline and 7,000lb all up displacement the following speeds can be reasonably expected for given horsepower:

Kt -- Hp
8.0 - 38
7.0 - 18
6.0 - 10
5.0 - 6
4.0 - 4
3.0 - 3
Boat Speed Calculator


The Yanmar 1GM10 is rated for 9hp continuous. About $5,000 plus accessories. 157lb dry.
The Farymann W18, 7.1hp, 141lb. $(?)
Yanmar 2YM15, 13.4hp, 227lb $7k
BetaMarine 14 - 13.5hp 198lb $7k

https://www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/y...heet_1GM10.pdf
https://farymann.com/engines.php?page=18wMarine
https://www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/y...heet_2YM15.pdf
https://www.betamarinenc.com/engine/beta-14-z482/

Great post. Thanks for the detail and insight. I will dig through your details as I get time.

Originally Posted by Adelie

The OP has discussed speeds in the 10kt+ range several times. It's not clear to me if he is expecting this sort of speed in whatever he buys. Unless he buys a MacGregor or a one of the similar designs he's not going to make that speed under power.

Correction - I used arbitrary numbers to make an illustration where the ratios/percentages (using 25% difference in burn rate as the key ratio) were what I was making the point on as opposed to the numbers that the ratios were based off of (speed, tank size, and fuel burn rate). The ratio (25% difference in burn rate) is what affects range given all other values (speed, tank size, and fuel burn rate) are equal/equivalent.



See highlighted and unerlined below, which I added from the original (not just highlighted). Reference the carat next to my username to reference the original post from which the quote is taken:

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

Numbers to illustrate the percentages only (consumption and speed just thrown in here):
10knts speed
tank gap 45gal



At a fuel consumption of 2gal/hr @ 10kts that is 225 nm
At a fuel consumption of 2.5gal/hr (25% more) @ 10kts that is 180nm

I never stated the 10kts as an absolute/fact/realistic achievable number - it was simply an arbitrary number from which to illustrate the 25% difference in fuel burn rates vs. range on the same amount of fuel, that was all. That's exactly why I stated I just "threw" the numbers in there.



No worries. Again thanks for the info! That's why I started the thread.

[blakeney]

I would look for an Alberg 30. There are lots around at good prices & they meet all your requirements.