Cutter/sloop sail question

[StevenPalmer51]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

Could you tell me how far aft the mast is from your stem? What is the distance from your headstay to your forestay? Do you sail with both headsals?
Kind Regards,
JohnL

Well, I've only sailed it once, and not with both headsails. Gaddy is in AK now and I'm in New Hampshire so it's problematic to run topsides and measure but looking at Ted's blueprints that measurement "appears" to be 3'5" with a distance from the headstay to the mast of 15'6" on a LOD measure of 38'5" and COE appears to be 3'3.5" behind the center of the mast.

[SkiprJohn]

Sounds like a good cutter sail plan.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha CSY,

That really looks like a cutter to me. And a mighty fine one it is. When you say you ease the sails to where you are losing too much horsepower does that mean you ease them until they are luffing? I'm just trying to get a handle on why you would have weather helm when you have so much headsail to balance the main.

Regards,

JohnL

[CSY Man]

I'm just trying to get a handle on why you would have weather helm when you have so much headsail to balance the main.

Sorry, I meant to say sail instead of sails.

I get plenty of weatherhelm with the main torqued in too tight.

Have to ease the main, or put a reef in to ease the weatherhelm.

Loosing some go-power on easing the main, but getting tired of the weatherhelm.

The boat is not very balanced or directional stable.
Have to do with the underbody and the mast/rig position.

Have tried about any combo of sail trim and reef there is, but she is still tender in yaw..An autopilots nighmare.

Easy to spin around in tight quarters however.

Got 8000 NM under the keel on this boat and learning to live with it, but if the wind is fresh and ya wanne go fast, ya get some weatherhelm.

[Gulfcoastbreeze]

Not all cutter masts are necessarily further aft than a sloop rig.

[SkiprJohn]

CSY,

"Loosing some go-power on easing the main, but getting tired of the weatherhelm."

You probably know all of what I'm going to say and tried it already and if so disregard it.

Only if you are close hauled (beating) should your main be in tight. All other points of sail your main should be out to just nearly luffing. You might lose some heeling and weatherhelm if you keep your main out a bit (not to the point of luffing). Whenever you have weatherhelm and lots of heeling (over 15 degrees) you'll be losing power and speed.

Gulfcoast - You're right. But most are.

Respectfully,

JohnL

[CSY Man]

Only if you are close hauled (beating) should your main be in tight. All other points of sail your main should be out to just nearly luffing. You might lose some heeling and weatherhelm if you keep your main out a bit (not to the point of luffing). Whenever you have weatherhelm and lots of heeling (over 15 degrees) you'll be losing power and speed.

Yea, but I thought that is what I said: Ease the main to reduce the weatherhelm.

If I am sheeted in tight, this boat will go like a bat out of hell, but too much heeling and too much weatherhelm..(I ain't no racer)
She is pretty stiff however so it is not a question of sailing with the rail in the water.

Sure the weatherhelm will go ease off when I ease the mainsail. I don't tughten the main too much on a steady course and get surprised by the WH, but feel it when changing course without trimming before the turn, and if we get a gust or steady wind increase from a nearby rainshower or CB.

Again, have learned to live with it, but I will try to trim the mast differently.

[SkiprJohn]

CSY,
Ok, sounds like you know the solution to getting rid of weather helm already. Let the main out. As you probably already know with the main eased out a bit and your headsails sheeted in you'll have less weatherhelm too. I guess the reason a cutter is more sensitive to main oversheeting is that the mast is set further aft. More pressure aft will make your boat want to head up causing weatherhelm.
Your design looks good. It would be nice to sort out the weatherhelm issue and make it go faster too.
JohnL

[CSY Man]

Your design looks good. It would be nice to sort out the weatherhelm issue and make it go faster too.
JohnL

It may be a design problem to start with. Not sure how to fix it..The boat also tracks pretty poorly. Take yer eyes of the compass or the horizon for a second and ya are off course.

Learned to live with that too...Like if you have a pretty girlfriend, a tall blonde with all the right curves, but she has stinky farts...What you gone do? Get used to it..

[Brent Swain]

Ted Brewer told one of my clients that his keels were too far aft ,and that he should move the mast aft. I told him that Ted Brewer has absolutely no experience with this particular design and following his advice would be a huge mistake. He put the mast where I told him to put it , about a couple of feet from where Brewer told him to put it. He is now happily cruising Central America and the boat balances beautifully. He said he is sure glad he didn't follow Brewer's advice. That whould have given him a horrendous weather helm. Is this why some designers are so fond of hydraulic steering, for the forgivenes of their mistakes that it offers?
Brent

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha CSY,
Have you talked with people who have the same design? Do they all agree that it was a design problem?
Just curious.
JohnL

[CSY Man]

Aloha CSY,
Have you talked with people who have the same design? Do they all agree that it was a design problem?
Just curious.
JohnL

Yes, have talked to other CSY 33 guys about it.

What else can it be if not a design problem?
Every owner trims the sails wrong all the time?

[SkiprJohn]

Ok, its a design problem. I'll stay away from the 33. Certainly a pretty boat by the way.
JohnL

[CSY Man]

I'll stay away from the 33

No reason to stay away from the CSY 33.
Every boat ever made is a compromise of some sort of the other.

The above happened to be a problem with the '33, but not a major one.
I have probably added to it by having plenty of weight up front, a baggy mainsail and a mast that could use tuning.

The design problem could be the rudder that is not balanced as far as not having a piece of the leading edge stick out to counter-balance the induced forces from a deflected rudder.

Also the cut-away forefoot of the keel could be a factor, as well as the position of the mast.

Again, show me the perfect boat and I will show you a liar: They all have some issues one way or the other.
(The price tag in some near-perfect boats for instance)

[Pblais]

Again, show me the perfect boat and I will show you a liar: They all have some issues one way or the other.

Better the ones you know than the ones you don't.

Since I have a CSY 33 too I think I can say that the upsides of the boat out weigh the downs. Personally, I think the barn door rudder is perhaps the root of most of it. Laying the boat too far over loads a barn door rudder and does seem just like weather helm. Depowering the main I found helps the most.