Cutter vs. Ketch rigs

[MicHughV]

You might want to note that the NZ boat, Steinlager 2, a Bruce Farr-designed yacht is a ketch.

Skippered by Peter Blake, she won the 1989–90 Whitbread Round the World Race and line honours in the 1989 Fastnet Race. She was the only yacht to ever win all six legs of the Whitbread Round the World Race.

'jes sayin'....

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

You might want to note that the NZ boat, Steinlager 2, a Bruce Farr-designed yacht is a ketch.

Skippered by Peter Blake, she won the 1989–90 Whitbread Round the World Race and line honours in the 1989 Fastnet Race. She was the only yacht to ever win all six legs of the Whitbread Round the World Race.

'jes sayin'....

I stand corrected!

[grantmc]

Very interesting discussion, and a great topic, so thanks OP. I wonder if though we might just as easily generalise and use the word ketch and yawl interchangeably? So single masted compared with two masts.

In both two masted designs more sail configurations are available compared with a sloop. But adding a second mast brings with it a whole heap of additional complexity, and not all masts are independent and so the comment about the mizzen being a backup for the main isn't necessarily true.

My biggest gripe would be the added foot space that the extra mast takes up, both on and below deck. That often results in a more difficult companion way and especially a smaller cockpit.

And whilst the points made about the use of reliable furlers for shortening sail is valid, sail shape is still always compromised.

Originally Posted by Auklet

I have thought it interesting that some designs, such as the Pearson 365 and the Pearson 424, were available either as ketch or sloop-rigged. There may be others, but basically the same boat just rigged differently. I suspect choice of rigging for the serious cruiser would be for the intended use—i.e., to what destinations and with what crew capability. I envision that in long passages where one would encounter much variation of conditions, including harsh ones, more sail combinations that are relatively easier to “manhandle” into position would argue in favor of the ketch-rigged boat over a sloop. ....

Several Ganleys designs offer the buyer a choice between cutter and ketch rigged. But I think with all of the models, the buyer is restricted to a centre cockpit. And that has its own drawbacks and advantages.

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...
Finally, though neither here nor there, to my eye, a ketch rig looks very sexy. Okay, sexy is probably not the right word, but can't think of another word at this time.
...

Sexy is definitely the right word!!! They just look so much better. And that's irrespective of the boat's condition, age and maintenance. If I had the money for a high end or even super yacht, no way would she be single masted. Cos it's all about the look and the vibe surely. Two masted shows that the genitals of the owner are by all measures bigger and their personality more warm and jovial.

Originally Posted by Scrimshaw4

Simply put, the problem with a cutter rig is they are harder to tack around the inner forestay. Ketch gives you more sail configuration options, particularly in Heavy weather. JMHO

And Scrimshaw hits the nail home. He/she is so correct irrespective of how the stay sail is rigged. Especially so if what we're actually discussing is a slutter rig. And I have such a vessel, and the gap between the two stays is pathetically narrow, especially at the head, so tacking the inner sail is a mission, and no matter how done requires someone go forward and manhandles the sail through the slot. A task on my list is to move the stay back and stay sails cut down.

And just to add a little colour to my post, here's a photo of the sunrise I'm seeing as I wrote this post. And yes I'm stuck on land currently. Sorry about the power pole and bus stop.

[Mike OReilly]

Both are great rigs -- assuming the boat was designed to accommodate the chosen one. I know there are a some faux-cutters out there. And I assume the same happens with ketch rigs.

From my experience owning and sailing both, I love the ketch for its sail configuration versatility. It's also easy to balance since you can see what is flying fore and aft of the CLR.

The cutter is perhaps easier to manage, notwithstanding the tiny-slot problem some report. It's easier to transition from a sloop to a cutter, but I haven't found it to be quite so versatile as my old ketch.

As for the slot problem on cutters, I only have an issue with this when the winds are quite light -- around 5 knots or less. Heavier winds and it's no issue; the sail gets pulled through fine. On these light-air days I just roll in the foresail a bit just before we tack. It's easy, and makes the tack go smoothly.

[Kettlewell]

The cutter I owned had something unique I have never seen on another boat. It didn't have roller furling, but both stays had hank on sails. The unique thing was the wire used was coated with black plastic--like coated lifeline wire but much heavier black plastic of some sort. You would think it would wear, but the hanks for the sails slipped so easily on the wire there seemed to be little wear. And, when you tacked the sail just slipped through the gap with very little fuss, even in light air. All the standing rigging was this black coated wire and it also let the jib sheets just slip over the wire very easily.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

From my experience owning and sailing both, I love the ketch for its sail configuration versatility. It's also easy to balance since you can see what is flying fore and aft of the CLR.

CLR and CE are great points to consider.

While a Mizzen Mast may take up some cockpit real estate, a boat of similar LOA and Keel would have a longer boom (over/into the cockpit) to move CE appropriately.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Many years ago when I was thinking of building or buying a good boat for the California Delta and SF bay I was thinking of a flat bottom, shallow drafted, high center of gravity hull like a Sharpie, that needed to have a low center of sail area and pretty much required a ketch rig. Aside from a shoal or shallow drafted boat, I don't know of an advantage of a ketch from a performance standpoint.

The advantage of a ketch is twofold -- spreading a lot of canvas but with a low center of effort, on a reach, and a lot of variety in sail plan.


I like ketches a lot, but not in boats less than about 50'. They have more drag and have lower aspect sails so are not as good upwind as a sloop or cutter. These disadvantages diminish if you can get the masts further apart from each other.


Cutter is a very good rig. Headsails lose their shapes as soon as you reef them. It's much better to just put them away when you can't carry the full sail. Cutter gives you options in sail area. Properly designed, the staysail is an excellent, always ready storm jib.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . As for the slot problem on cutters, I only have an issue with this when the winds are quite light -- around 5 knots or less. Heavier winds and it's no issue; the sail gets pulled through fine. On these light-air days I just roll in the foresail a bit just before we tack. It's easy, and makes the tack go smoothly.

If the jib is cut right, and the stays are the right distance apart, there is no problem tacking a cutter


Another thing which helps with this is a laminate jib with slippery dyneema taffeta on it.

[Kettlewell]

Cutter is a very good rig. Headsails lose their shapes as soon as you reef them. It's much better to just put them away when you can't carry the full sail. Cutter gives you options in sail area. Properly designed, the staysail is an excellent, always ready storm jib.

A lot of older cutters had way too small of a staysail, which was mainly useful as a storm jib and just in the way a lot of the time. OTOH, with a decent sized staysail it is just wonderful to carry on when the wind pipes up a bit and you would normally be rolling a roller furler jib on a sloop. Plus, I really enjoyed having a high cut jib so I could see under it even when heeled.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by grantmc

Very interesting discussion, and a great topic, so thanks OP. I wonder if though we might just as easily generalise and use the word ketch and yawl interchangeably? So single masted compared with two masts.

In both two masted designs more sail configurations are available compared with a sloop. But adding a second mast brings with it a whole heap of additional complexity, and not all masts are independent and so the comment about the mizzen being a backup for the main isn't necessarily true.

My biggest gripe would be the added foot space that the extra mast takes up, both on and below deck. That often results in a more difficult companion way and especially a smaller cockpit.

Somehow I see the ketch and yawl to be quite different. Rod Stephens' famous quip was something like the best thing to do with a mizzen on a yawl was to take an axe to it. They seem to sail just fine without it apparently. And the mizzen mast on a yawl probably does not occupy any popular real estate as well. But it's a good place to put your radar! And a good place for a riding sail!

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

A lot of older cutters had way too small of a staysail, which was mainly useful as a storm jib and just in the way a lot of the time. OTOH, with a decent sized staysail it is just wonderful to carry on when the wind pipes up a bit and you would normally be rolling a roller furler jib on a sloop. Plus, I really enjoyed having a high cut jib so I could see under it even when heeled.

Seems to me a staysail that is stout enough to be a storm jib is probably too heavy to be good for daily use, so maybe best just to keep it furled until the storm? I can't imagine there is an aerodynamic advantage to a stiff sail between the jib and main when going upwind... or off the wind for that matter... but I'm open to be proven wrong...
When I sailed the Downeast 38 I never used the staysail going upwind though the owner thought it helped. Off the wind was ok though. Maybe my friend up at the Sailing Science Center in SF Bay can run some simulations to settle this matter for me!

[Greatest Lakes]

For my 2 cents; I like the cutter. It's cheaper to maintain, easier to balance, handy on windy days and frees up deck space aft. The second mast eats up a lot of real estate inside and outside. Most cutters will have a bit of extra clutter on the rig, but not nearly as much as a ketch or yawl.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Seems to me a staysail that is stout enough to be a storm jib is probably too heavy to be good for daily use, so maybe best just to keep it furled until the storm? I can't imagine there is an aerodynamic advantage to a stiff sail between the jib and main when going upwind... or off the wind for that matter... but I'm open to be proven wrong...
When I sailed the Downeast 38 I never used the staysail going upwind though the owner thought it helped. Off the wind was ok though. Maybe my friend up at the Sailing Science Center in SF Bay can run some simulations to settle this matter for me!

My staysail is heavy enough to be a good storm jib, yet is also very good as a staysail.

I get quite a bit of drive from it on a reach, which is bonus drive since very little extra heel results.

It works upwind, too, but upwind it's a bit of work to trim it, and the jib, to work well together.

It's a very versatile, useful sail.

It's self-tacking, which is convenient, but this also means barber haulers are often required to get it trimmed just right.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by rbrazil

Is anyone going to discuss tacking a cutter rig with a full Genoa flying and trying to stuff it through the slot? It’s a pain in the butt.
I vote Ketch.

P.S. we have a cutter rigged Ketch with a self-tacking Staysail. I love the versatility of a Ketch. Imagine tacking with a mizzen, main and self-tacking staysail. “Look Mom, no hands!”

I'll discuss it:
If it's really a cutter, with a yankee-cut jib at the end of a bowsprit, passing the jib is no big deal.
Genoas are for sloops.

[Foswick]

Anyone who says one is better than the other is only looking at part of the picture. It depends on what you value and what kind of sailing you plan to do. For some reason, ketch rigs have somewhat fallen out of favor in recent years. Some will say that modern advancements have made them obsolete, but this reflects a narrow view of sailing.

These things sway back and forth. Currently, there is a cult of modernity that has more influence in people's preferences. In a few years, it will likely swing back to favoring traditional boats. The truth is, ketches outperform other rigs on several measures. They also underperform other rigs on several measures.

That is a generally true statement of any rigging configuration. But, when folks evaluate a configuration, they tend to do so in comparison to a Bermuda sloop - a common reference point for a "normal" sailboat.

So, cutters stack up well in this comparison. They act essentially like a Bermuda sloop, but with some added options/benefits.

But, comparing a ketch to a sloop is not as straightforward. There is a lot more wiggle room in terms of personal preference and needs. Depending on a number of factors, a ketch might stack up favorably to a Bermuda sloop or it might not.

This makes it "feel" like cutters are better than ketches. But, the reality is that you need to evaluate every boat on its own merits measured against your own needs, style, preferences, etc.

Aside from being decidedly sexier than their relatively mast-deficient cousins, ketches have several interesting benefits that aren't often talked about.

First, with most ketches, you don't need to choose between ketch and cutter. Most can be made into cutter ketches without a lot of modifications. This gives you a lot of sail options and, in many cases, takes away one of the biggest criticisms of ketches - windward performance. (By the way, this reputation for poor windward performance is not entirely justified - depends on the boat and somewhat on how she is sailed. I get "fair" windward performance on my Fuji 32 ketch. Not breaking any records, but also not terrible.)

Also, the cabin layout is often more favorable with a ketch. We enjoy not having a compression post right in the middle of our salon. (In fact, there is no standalone compression post anywhere. It is integral to a bulkhead.) Conversely, I do share the cockpit with the mizzen mast, but this doesn't bother me much.

If I had to choose one or the other for trade wind cruising, I would take a ketch any day of the week. These days I am doing most of my cruising in the San Juans, Puget Sound, and Gulf Islands. So, admitttedly, I have the wrong boat for that purpose if I was only looking at sailing performance in normal conditions for this area. (In my case, I have different priorities.)