Cutter vs. Ketch rigs

[MicHughV]

My ketch rigged boat was was just shy of 39'.
Originally the main and mizzen were tied together by a " triatic stay" but I removed this.

Going from memory, the main was around 200 sf, the mizzen maybe 120-140 sf, I really can't remember any more. Working jib was 250 sf or so.
Not large sails by any means and I could manhandle these with ease.

I attach a pic. What looks like a " triatic stay" is actually part of my ham radio rig.

The full length battens on the main were a recent addition when that pic was taken.

The pic itself has an interesting history. It was taken by a photographer flying overhead in a Cessna. At a later date, I was able to get a copy of the pic. That's me standing on the bow, if you're interested.

But...I digress, I found the ketch rig to be a versatile rig, adaptable to numerous sail configurations.

Alas, you don't see many ketches around anymore, and if you do, they are bound to be older boats.
But, to my eye, they are sexy rigs, and are head turners wherever you go.

[Foswick]

Originally Posted by Greatest Lakes

It's cheaper to maintain, easier to balance, handy on windy days and frees up deck space aft. The second mast eats up a lot of real estate inside and outside. Most cutters will have a bit of extra clutter on the rig, but not nearly as much as a ketch or yawl.

You absolutely can and should have your preferences, but almost none of this is true.

I have never seen any evidence that one is cheaper than the other to maintain. I have seen people argue (unsuccessfully) that a ketch is actually less expensive. But, it really seems to be a wash with no clear "winner".

The mizzen mast rarely takes up any useable space inside. Depends on the boat. In the case of my boat, neither mast takes up any real estate below deck.

And, I don't think there is any more/less clutter one way or the other. The mizzen mast on my boat is colocated with the binnacle, so hardly gets in the way. And, its mainsheet attaches at the transom, so is entirely out of the way. In fact, there are no lines or hardware for the mizzen that take up any useable deck space - except for the footprint of the mast itself immediately forward of the binnacle.

The only true point, here, is that there is a mizzen mast taking up deck space. Whether this is in the way or not depends on the boat.

[MicHughV]

If you had to make a comparison.

A sloop/cutter rig on my boat would have required a taller mast, with a larger x-section, larger diameters shrouds and stays, bigger boom, etc...maybe a second set of spreaders and so on...

vs, a smaller mast, smaller x-section and smaller shrouds and stays, but the addition of a mizzen, plus stays, etc.

Probably a wash as near as I can figure. I never considered the mizzen to be an impediment. On the contrary, found it to be a useful appendage in more ways I could describe here.

[HankOnthewater]

The original poster mentioned Roberts Mauritius. I have sailed several of this model, both as ketches and sloops. and both had at times a staysail. For these kind of boats the mizzen setup was never much help, and rarely used, except maybe when winds were on the stern quarter, and even then, the ketches were hard to balance. So for the Mauritius I would select a sloop/cutter. I sailed 2 53ft Roberts boats, and again mizzen was not very beneficial. For the OP: sail the boat you are considering, and see how the mizzen helps or hinders.

In most boats, I think a second mast only becomes beneficial on larger boats maybe 45 ft, or 50ft as Grantmc said.

The demise of ketches is obvious: it is complete on the racing circuit, and near complete when buying a new production model sailing boat. Reasons for that has been mentioned in above posts.

What has not been mentioned above, is that a staysail (as on cutter rig) needs running backstays. This adds complication, and when tacking in strong winds with limited crew, timing (to get tension on the backstay) is critical.

One solution is to have a solent rig. That inner headsail attaches to the top of the mast, so no need for running backstays. That works well for me

[MicHughV]

Besides all the above, the ketch rig has a "romantic" appeal to me and for many others. While this affiliation can't be judged by any sailing advantage/disadvantage metric, so to it can't be explained why it appeals to some.
Y'know, some people like blondes, others like brunettes, and there is usually no explaining why.

[Don C L]

I take it back, there is another ketch advantage that I have heard of and you ketch owners can inform us on this. I’ve heard it said they balance well with staysail and mizzen in a storm.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Iron E

CLR and CE are great points to consider.

While a Mizzen Mast may take up some cockpit real estate, a boat of similar LOA and Keel would have a longer boom (over/into the cockpit) to move CE appropriately.

Exactly like my current cutter -- we have a very long boom and relatively large mainsail that achieves what a mizzen would easily do. For me, a ketch is easier to balance. And the added mast gave more versatility to the sail rig.

Not that I'm complaining ... I like my cutter. It too is a versatile and flexible rig. I love it for upwind work when winds really pipe up. A furled headsail is usually a terrible shape, so it's great to be able to furl the yankee and let the staysail work its magic. And, of course, with a stout staysail, you have your storm sail rigged and ready all the time.

As I say, I like them both. What I wouldn't want to go back to is, is basic sloop. Other than simplicity, there's really not much going for it.

[boatman61]

Loved my Cherubini 37c with it's Yankee and boomed staysail.. zero problems tacking but also love ketches for their ability to sail jib and jigger at hull speeds in winds beam on and Aft..
A cutter rigged ketch is the best of both worlds..

[MicHughV]

I never thought a staysail and a mizzen would provide much driving force as the separation between the two is too large.
But much too my surprise, this turned out not to be the case in heavy winds.

You could, in essence, consider this, as a boat sailing under two jibs.
All things considered, quite effectively, even upwind.

I'm no expert on the matter, but have read a variety of theories that expound on having the mizzen as far removed from the main as possible, so as to avoid the mainsail from backwinding the mizzen.

With the mainsail down, this problem resolves itself, allowing the mizzen to function in relatively undisturbed air.

My 2c only here, based on my experience.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I’ve heard it said they balance well with staysail and mizzen in a storm.

Well, there certainly wasn't any stormy weather, but three of us spent 6 days well offshore on, (would you believe it,) a fishing trip for tuna.
It was a wooden 40' double-head Ketch, (I can't stand the term "Cutter Ketch",) of heavy displacement, ~32,000lbs, 7' draft.
We didn't want the boat to move too fast, we wanted to stay within a certain area and just reach back-and-forth in the prevailing north westerlies, the boat steered itself real nice.
Spent most of the time with just mizzen and staysail, easy ride, no stress.
Oh, the stress came later when the engine quit coming back over the Columbia River bar, a bit of excitement but no trouble.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Switching from a sloop to a cutter is simple, its basically the same rig. A ketch is a bit more effort as the sail dynamics are a bit different. Trimming the main has more "consequences" on a ketch as you have to balance the main with the genoa AND the mizzen. A cutter will typically tend to point a bit higher based on the same hull. A ketch will be more costly to maintain as essentially you are maintaining 2 rigs worth of standing rigging. My ketch (as an example) has a total of 14 stays between the main and mizzen masts. The costs for that adds up.

The reality is that ketches were developed as a way to manage sail handling. Allowing you to set more smaller sails, making them easier to manage, reef, etc. With today's powerful winches and other gear, you can manage larger sails more easily.

BUT a ketch still looks better sailing, and you can set 2 spinnakers on the right day and everyone likes the way that looks!

I have a different take.
We sail a Van de Stadt Trintella 44. Ours is ketch rigged. They also did a sloop rig option.
Both masts are the same height. The boom on the ketch is shorter. What you lose in mainsail area on the ketch rig is more than made up for with the mizzen sail area.
Cutter rigs don't point as higher as sloops. Our ketch points as high as the sloop rigged version of our Trintella as we have the same hull and we have sailed in company with a slooped rig Trintella for a season in the Caribbean. Where we lose out is upwind in light conditions where the apparent wind is less than 50° here, the mizzen adds no performance so we are under canvassed up wind. The mizzen mast just adds drag.
Off the wind with the apparent wind on the beam we are faster than the sloop as we can set more sail area. As the wind increases we can reef the main and set the working jib such that we have a lower C of E but still a good area of canvas with the mizzen set. This makes the boat comfortable and fast.
We just crossed from Antigua to the Azores in a predominantly light wind passage in 15 days. Exceptional for a 44 boat. The only boats to do a faster time are all in the 50+ ft range and we have only found a couple of boats thst were faster. We sailed the boat with just me and my wife. No hairy arsed racing crew and we didn't push the boat. We just sailed for comfort. Got to love a ketch rigged boat

[Lou-In-NJ]

I appreciate all the responses so far, and by no means should anyone interested in posting, think the discussion has ended. There are so many interesting points made, that it's going to take a little while for me to sort them out in my own head, if not seek out someone who'd let me crew for them, to get some first-hand experience.
I'm glad people have their opinions, and also happy to see this thread hasn't become an argument.

Please keep the comments coming, I am taking it all in.

[MicHughV]

"'twas the night before leaving
in the late hours of the evening

our sails were hoisted and made fast
on our sturdy little sloop with it's towering mast

so off we went at a merry clip
the start of our thousand mile trip

when over the horizon appeared a boat
I'd not seen such a craft afloat

where we sported a single stick
this craft had two, it must be a trick

What is this, what could it be
it was overtaking us, it was clear to see

I shouted across to this amazing boat
That is the strangest thing I've seen afloat

Nay, came the response, as a thunderous roar
Yer being whupped by a ketch, need I say more

And as he slipped beneath the horizon in quite a flight
I was left to ponder if he was right

My one little stick against his two
Must be the reason, my boat sailed like being in a pool of glue

So I tell this tale to inform you
Two instead of one is nothing new

It's been around for a very long time
And with that, this is the end of my rhyme

[Kettlewell]

There are fast ketches, sloops, and cutters, and there are slow in each category too. OTOH, I bet close to 75% of the boats you will encounter out cruising are ordinary production sloops. Personally, I have owned and sailed extensively with all three rigs and I don't have a strong preference one way or another. They each have their pluses and minuses. In general, I think a ketch rig doesn't make a lot of sense below around 40 feet unless you absolutely need a shorter rig to clear fixed bridges where you sail or possibly if you have a shallow-draft boat that requires an extra-low center of effort. The extra mast, rigging, sail, lines, etc. is just in the way and doesn't provide benefits worth it on smaller vessels. Cutter rigs suffer most of the same problems below 40 feet. There is some benefit in utilizing a couple of smaller sails upforward in terms of ease of handling, but most good roller furler setups take care of that on cruising sailboats. On sloops I have used a small staysail permanently hanked on an inner forestay on sloops in order to have both a storm sail and an instant backup to the main roller furling jib for when it fails, and it has proven to be somewhat useful. In reality, most of us most of the time try to sail in moderate winds and seas making the standard sloop rig the easiest and most efficient to use, most of the time!

[MicHughV]

I see this from a different perspective.

Many years ago, I was given a Bruce Roberts " Build your own Boat " catalog.
This was rather strange, as I lived 100's of miles from any ocean and didn't know squat about boats.

Nonetheless, I started to flip thru' the pages, and with each page, the boat models got larger.

I kept flipping Until I came to the BR 38 ketch. I was stunned to see a boat with two masts. For reasons I can't explain, I was mesmerized about those two masts reaching to the sky.
I didn't know a ketch from a stick in the ground, but this boat, I simply had to have.

I cut out the little pic of that boat out of the magazine and stuck it in my wallet. Some years passed, before an opportunity came along for me to build it, so I did.

Ever since that time, I love a ketch. I care not a whit about it's many supposed detractions, faults and foibles, I simply love that rig to this day.