Cutter vs. Ketch rigs

[argonauta1]

One of the first modifications we made to our Beneteau 440 was to install a detachable inner forestay. Often when sailing downwind in strong conditions we found running on the hanked on self tacking storm jib gave us hull speed. We got used to partially furling the genoa before tacking which on a west about circumnavigation was relatively infrequent. In lighter conditions we could pole out the genoa and wing the storm jib out on the opposite side while flying the jenniker. Great stuff! Definitely consider the modified cutter option. Oh, my advice would be to not take the inner forestay to the mast head. Instead take it as far as midway between the spreaders and masthead thus avoiding a need for running backstays.

[Nicholson58]

BTW, Scrimshaw’s comment about tacking.

ROXY is a center cockpit ketch with cutter staysail and inner stay as well. It tacks well with its new North 3DI 98% jib. We’ve found this sail drives the boat well up to 20 pointing and the short foot passes easily on a tack. If you use a large overlapping jib or Yankee you will need to partially roll it in. Caribbean cruising weather is almost always 15-25 apparent so a 98% blade and strong staysail is a great combination. Staysail alone after 20+ unless you are reaching. We started our Caribbean cruising with a 130% Yankee, 77 sq meters. Over powered at 16 apparent. It was a game changer when it blew apart and we switched to the 98% 3DI, 70 sq meters. Faster, closer to weather, OK in higher wind and it tacks. .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

BTW, Scrimshaw’s comment about tacking.

ROXY is a center cockpit ketch with cutter staysail and inner stay as well. It tacks well with its new North 3DI 98% jib. We’ve found this sail drives the boat well up to 20 pointing and the short foot passes easily on a tack. If you use a large overlapping jib or Yankee you will need to partially roll it in. Caribbean cruising weather is almost always 15-25 apparent so a 98% blade and strong staysail is a great combination. Staysail alone after 20+ unless you are reaching. We started our Caribbean cruising with a 130% Yankee, 77 sq meters. Over powered at 16 apparent. It was a game changer when it blew apart and we switched to the 98% 3DI, 70 sq meters. Faster, closer to weather, OK in higher wind and it tacks. .

Our experience with our cutter is similar.


I have alternate principle headsails -- a 120% yankee and a 95% blade, both in carbon laminate.


The yankee is a little harder to tack than the blade, but it's not a problem, even short tacking while racing. It helps to have a sail with dyneema taffeta -- it's slippery and scoots right through the slot.


The 95% blade is an incredibly versatile sail -- a demon upwind, obviously, but effective in a remarkably wide range of conditions and points of sail. The larger yankee is noticeably better only in really light conditions and when off the wind.


The blade plays nicely with the staysail, which does not obviously add any power when hard on the wind, but does already when cracked off a bit.


If it could have only one headsail it would certainly be the blade.


The other game changer is sailcloth. I'll never buy another woven sail again. The carbon laminate has the same shape today that it had 9 years and 50,000 miles ago when I bought it, and still shows no apparent signs of wear. I bought it expecting it to have a shorter lifespan than Dacron but willing to take that on board for better shape, and as it turns out it is much more durable than Dacron. So in the end it's not even really more expensive, counted by mile.


Sadly I lost my carbon lam mainsail due to UV coming through the mast slot, so I had to invest in a new one this year. Sad because other than the UV damage, that sail was practically like new.

[mackrobertson]

The first boat I owned was a 36’ sloop. Then I bought a ketch and I never looked back; I am on my 3rd ketch.

My experience is that the ketch is a more balanced rig, has smaller sails,?brings a lower aspect main mast and gives you more options with your sails. The mizzen sail functions as a wind rudder. You can lock the helm and steer the boat with it when sailing to windward.

While single handing, I can set the roller furling jib and the mizzen from the cockpit. Later I can set the main, but it adds little speed to the boat; maybe 3/4 of a knot on my 39’ Allied Mistress. Many times I don’t bother raising the main due to its size.

Also, a mizzen mast offers a fantastic variety of equipment mounting options. My mizzen has GPS and backup VHF antennas on the masthead, a wind generator, tv antenna, radar dome on the front. (The wind generator is for use at anchor, and has a swing of ~ 120 degrees.) At bottom, in the cockpit, are the compass, autopilot display and chart plotter/ radar. I don’t have a binacle, I have Edson steering.

My experiences with sloops have invariably been colored by severe weather helm and fighting the wheel.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by mackrobertson

I don’t have a binacle, I have Edson steering.

If I may ask, what type of steering system does the boat use?

[mackrobertson]

I have an Edson worm drive steering gear. I think all of the Edmonds designed Allied sailboats were fitted with the Edson.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by mackrobertson

I have an Edson worm drive steering gear.

Thank you, I thought so.
For ~100 years the term "Edson gear" or "Edson Steering" was pretty much taken for granted as referring to "worm gear" steering.
Haha, you're not alone, I too have it.
I love it.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Lou-In-NJ

I'm looking for opinions on cutter vs. ketch rigged boats. I am talking to the owner of a Mauritius 43' center cockpit ketch, and also a rear cockpit cutter rigged boat in the same size range.

We've sailed our 36' sloop around the Northeast (Maine to New Jersey), Gulf of Maine and Block Island Sound being the most open water we've done; but we'd like to do more coastal cruising in the next few years, and maybe take the boat to the Caribbean at some point, for a few seasons. I have no experience with these other rigs, and I'd like to hear what people's experience and advice is for a fairly agile couple with extensive sloop experience, when transitioning to the handling these other types of rigs.

I agree with those few who stated that much is dependent on what the sailboat was designed for: sloop, cutter, ketch or yawl. Remember that the cutter not only has a staysail but all real cutter masts are further aft than on sloops...sloops with an inner stay are still sloops.

In researching my boat I initially was drawn to the Pacific Seacraft, a well-built boat that was designed as a cutter but offered as a sloop, cutter, and yawl. I called the company and asked if all rigs had the same mast position and the answer was YES. In my opinion sailing it in anything but the cutter configuration is counter the intended design.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by MJH

In researching my boat I initially was drawn to the Pacific Seacraft, a well-built boat that was designed as a cutter but offered as a sloop, cutter, and yawl. I called the company and asked if all rigs had the same mast position and the answer was YES. In my opinion sailing it in anything but the cutter configuration is counter the intended design.

Wow, I find that surprising too!

[mackrobertson]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Thank you, I thought so.
For ~100 years the term "Edson gear" or "Edson Steering" was pretty much taken for granted as referring to "worm gear" steering.
Haha, you're not alone, I too have it.
I love it.

Well, I put Edson in my first post but you asked.
I really like it. Simple, high reliability, direct coupled. The KISS principle should be the first consideration in all boat systems. Sadly, things run to complexity these days. There will be a lot of dysfunctional boats when a greater disaster befalls us.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MJH

. . . In researching my boat I initially was drawn to the Pacific Seacraft, a well-built boat that was designed as a cutter but offered as a sloop, cutter, and yawl. I called the company and asked if all rigs had the same mast position and the answer was YES. In my opinion sailing it in anything but the cutter configuration is counter the intended design.

If you want to go completely purist, it's not a cutter without a running bowsprit and flying jib. Mast position is not enough, strictly speaking.

Modern (that is, built in the last 40 years or so) "cutters" might as well be called "staysail sloops" or "slutters", because the mast position is similar to that of a masthead rigged sloop (which has mast further aft than a fractional sloop).

In my opinion it's quite ok to call them cutters. If we can't call them cutters, then we can't call modern sloops sloops, either, which have diverged just as much from classical sloops as cutters have. Is your sloop gaff rigged? Has a fixed bowsprit? Gaff topsail? I didn't think so

[Don C L]

I always thought that cutters necessarily flew yankees.

[nofacey]

Given roller furling - Go cutter hands down.
- great sail flexibility - throw one reef in the main, and you’re good just working furlers from 15 to 35 kts (ie most all tradewind sailing)
- less rigging
- less cockpit obstruction

I’ve had a couple cutters, and aside from tacking in very light winds, you just hold the Genoa sheet till the sail bows thru the slot between forestay and intermediate stay, then let it go…..it’ll blow right thru. If the wind is light……furl the Genoa and fly a light wind sail, that’s when you need them.

[jen1722terry]

Very erudite and helpful comments on the ketch v. cutter debate.


We have a cutter. We're also lazy. So we like the cutter rig as we can put a single reef in the main and fly just the staysail forward. This makes the boat at self-tacking and fairly well balanced (if a bit slower but if you're a cruising sailor in a hurry get a catamaran) which really appeals to our abject laziness.

Either rig can be gorgeous when underway.

Cheers

[Mickeyrouse]

Having sailed a split rig ( in our case, a yawl) I think that the expectations should be different. As mentioned, that mizzen is only helpful when the wind is abaft the beam- but then then, it can be REALLY helpful. And if you’re flying a mizzen staysail……Most cutters I’ve ever seen have bowsprits, so the fore triangle is really big. Add to that the size of the inner jib ( or yankee?) and the sail area really gets up there. But as also noted, at least on the cutters I’ve sailed on, tacking that baby is not a rapid maneuver. But cutters do look oh-so-salty. Almost as much as a yawl or ketch.