Design vs Displacement ?

[SaltyMonkey]

Here is a recent thread I think you need to read before jumping to conclusions about ANY boat:

Beefing Up A Catalina 36 For Bluewater - SailNet Community

and the related rescue:

EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Lessons Learned: Sailing to Hawaii...The First Attempt by Arnold Rowe

SailNet has a boat review section worth looking into - usually by owners

http://www.sailnet.com

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

... Well, with so many variable and complicated thoughts....in the end I'm coming to think a boat should be judged by the layout of a navigation station and where the galley sinks are placed...

Definitely. To me: zero or minimalistic nav station (the best nav station is the one I can carry in my pocket), but the sinks as close to the center as possible PLS.

b.

[SaltyMonkey]

I've moved away from a fold down table over a berth to ooohing and aaahing a nice sit down navigation table with plenty of space + a real back on a seat - ideally stand alone and separated from a berth. Why? Because I need a real desk space in port when I get someplace, not just a settee table. I spend a lot of time at a desk working on planning and reading. So, when I look at some of those bendie boats, I feel good.

Sinks - deep and in center of the boat.

I'd add sumps too, but I'm trying to figure out some work arounds.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I've moved away from a fold down table over a berth to ooohing and aaahing a nice sit down navigation table with plenty of space + a real back on a seat - ideally stand alone and separated from a berth. Why? Because I need a real desk space in port when I get someplace, not just a settee table. I spend a lot of time at a desk working on planning and reading. So, when I look at some of those bendie boats, I feel good.

Sinks - deep and in center of the boat.

I'd add sumps too, but I'm trying to figure out some work arounds.

We found when living aboard that having a nice navigation table with a good seat was essential. You need some place to work, pay bills, use the laptop, etc. And one of the most important factors is that the table be "flat" not sloped. On our Baba is was sloped and now on the Pretorian it is flat ... its been a world of difference. A flat table is so much more functional.

[SaltyMonkey]

wow finding a flat table, one originally installed - and a stand alone seat - now thats a real challenge! Pretorian 35 is nice.

[barnakiel]

Cool. But we are not talking navigation tables now. They are desks, working benches, bunch of old hypocrites.

We all know that any horizontal table is horizontal only in a cottage house. How much navigating do we make in a cottage house ???

;-)))

Cheese,
barnie

[barnakiel]

Now. Seriously:

With a plotter in my pocket (or on the pod, etc) and all instruments on the wall/panel I do not want a nav table. I will use one 1% of the passage time and it will just take up space the rest of the time - not quite so good from the space allocation point of view (in a small boat, probably not an issue in anything 50' and beyond).

The only question is where to place the paper chart, so that I can quickly and comfortably work on it if in need?

b.

[SaltyMonkey]

barnakiel - I think thats great for you, but I spend every hour @ mine, and I wouldn't mine sleeping at it. I think you are right on about slant though. You do need a slant.

My favorite navigation tables I saw on an Open 40 like boat - a giant V in the center of the boat so when it heels the leeward side becomes a level surface.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Now. Seriously:

With a plotter in my pocket (or on the pod, etc) and all instruments on the wall/panel I do not want a nav table. I will use one 1% of the passage time and it will just take up space the rest of the time - not quite so good from the space allocation point of view (in a small boat, probably not an issue in anything 50' and beyond).

The only question is where to place the paper chart, so that I can quickly and comfortably work on it if in need?

b.

But then again, how much time do you spend in passage? The rest of the time (at dock or anchorage) a nav table is a usable table and a good space allocation ... IMHO.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

My favorite navigation tables I saw on an Open 40 like boat - a giant V in the center of the boat so when it heels the leeward side becomes a level surface.

Yep. And in one of the Open 60 re-designs into cruiser you will see the navstation on a carousel that swings from one side of the hull to the other - to allow for the tack the boat is sailing (design - JP54, Yachting World July 2010).

Without such extremes, what I like a lot is what we can see in the Able and in the Bougainvillea - a nav table with a view ...

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Doodles

But then again, how much time do you spend in passage? The rest of the time (at dock or anchorage) a nav table is a usable table and a good space allocation ... IMHO.

That's what I am pointing at! To me - the passage counts, and the boat and its elements should be designed about a sailor on a passage. Otherwise we end up with boats looking like camper vans. I know it is different with marina queens.

A boat is a boat is a boat. (Biased, but honest) A house is a house and if I want a house, I stick to 6x8', 190lbs oak and mahogany writing desk, in the house, or tied up in a marina.

b.

[MichaelC]

I have not logged any where near the miles offshore that some of our members have. I have logged a few thousand. I have also run over stuff at sea. Like nets, for example. For my boats, that is not a problem, for my long keels and attached rudders simply slide over them. An independently hung rudder would catch such a line every time. I can only imagine the nightmare of that in strong seas, winds and at night. But lots of people go to sea with those kinds of rudders. Maybe they are luckier than I.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by MichaelC

(on nets & lines) ... attached rudders simply slide over them. An independently hung rudder would catch such a line every time ...(...)... But lots of people go to sea with those kinds of rudders.

People go and sail with the boats they have. Right now I bet the (production) ratio is at (?) 9 to 1 for the spade or skeg.

Another reason is speed - you can't have a safe keel attached rudder and a fast boat at the same time.

A well attached (read - keel attached) rudder is like a softboard - good for beginners, more difficult to get hurt if you flip up. But it is limiting to the sporty type.

Sure, a good racing sailor will sail any configuration with ease. But a cruiser who only knows the heavy hull and keel hung rudder may find his hands (and not only) full on a thru and thru racer.

barnie

[PAR]

I have several skeg mounted and stand alone spade rudder designs, that all have attempted to snag crab trap warps, nets, etc. None have torn off their rudders. Now, several have stoved them in on a coral head, rock or sand bar, but this is a different matter. If you include enough rake to the leading edge, then most any thing will strip or self shed itself off the appendage.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by PAR

If you include enough rake to the leading edge, then most any thing will strip or self shed itself off the appendage.

If you include enough rake you will lose the high aspect ratio which is the main incentive of any stand alone or skeg supported rudder - minimum wetted surface at maximum efficiency.

Unless you mean foils like on some Van de Stadts back in the 60ties and 70 ties. But there must be a reason why we do not see this design in 21 century anymore.

b.