Disadvantages of a pilot house design?

[river251]

I'm intrigued by the Dufour 12000CT, because 1) it has a wheel inside the cabin AND outside in the cockpit, and 2) it has big windows all around the cabin, giving lots of visibility and light, unlike most sailboats. In bad weather, one can pilot from inside, with excellent visibility.

It does not have a big box-like cabin like some pilot house boats do.

Why aren't all boats like this? What are the disadvantages, besides windage?

Thanks.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/197...12000-3725331/

[montyp]

From what I understand, the Pilot House is more difficult to cool in warmer climates. I'm guessing the combination of more surface area to absorb the sun and larger volume makes it difficult to cool.

Perhaps cost is also a factor?

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by river251

Why aren't all boats like this? What are the disadvantages, besides windage?

I love pilothouses, but they are not as useful in warmer climates, because it's too hot to be inside, you would be steering all the time from the outside anyway, and that pilothouse blocks your visibility a bit. I suppose there's also issue of extra complexity adding a second set of steering controls inside the boat.

And there is aesthetics. Put a pilothouse on a boat and it goes from looking like a graceful boat to a half boat/half automobile.


BTW, the 1978 Dufour in your link looks very good for that price.

[JPA Cate]

Does it have a windshield wiper? or spinner to deflect water? Hard to see out in rain and spray without one.

Difficult to ventilate well in hot weather.

Difficult to see around if too hot for indoor steering.

Two steering systems to maintain.

Aesthetics can also be an issue, and sometimes the interior of the boat is all chopped up. This gets to personal preferences. I like a very open plan; others like cozy little cabins and saloons. Choose what feels better to yourself.

Depends some on where you are and how you expect to use the boat.

Ann

[Discovery 15797]

I've had a pilothouse for the past 22 years. I never thought it would be the boat I would go cruising in...but after 20 years in the Pacific Northwest with the boat, a complete refit, and gallons of sweat and blood she is as much a part of me as my own hand. She is a safe and comfortable cruiser.

WRT windage...poppycock. Many of the new Bene's and Hanse's have raised salon decks that have as much if not more windage than my Cooper.

WRT visibility...poppycock. The cockpit sole on a pilothouse is raised so visibility over the doghouse is not affected. IMHO Nauticats and Cabo Rico PH's are motorsailers; not pilothouse sailboats. So, this statement doesn't apply to motorsailers with big boxy doghouses. But, since most of these boats are listed as PH also...they get lumped into PH discussions.

WRT cooling in hotter climates...poppycock. All uncovered boats in warmer climates (I'm in Hawaii now) will get toasty warm...especially boats that are some color other than white. And forget teak decks..they get hot and act as an insulator to keep the heat inside. There is a reason you see long-term cruising boats in the tropics covered with yards of Sunbrella...newer cruisers...not so much, but they learn very soon.

Each window in my doghouse is tinted and has a 90% Phifertex covering. It allows light in during the day, but blocks 90% of the sun's rays. I have a canvas tent over the doghouse as well as over the foredeck and a hard dodger with canvas bimini in the cockpit. The canvas over the foredeck and doghouse allow the hatches to stay open during rain. Ventilation and shade is critically important to keeping the inside of any sailboat cool in the tropics.

In the cockpit I use 75% Phifertex for side curtains. The 75% allows better air flow than the 90%, but still keeps the cockpit from direct sunlight.

Most boats with inside steering have hydraulic steering. The maintenance is bleeding the pumps at different levels (which could be listed as a downside). But, my maintenance has consisted for pump rebuilds every 20 years (I rebuilt the pumps when I bought the boat, and rebuilt before heading off to HI), checking the hydraulic fluid levels once a month.

WRT windshield wipers....that is definitely "old school" tech....Rain X works wonders. I removed the wipers from my forward looking windows and never installed them on my hard dodger windows. Think about it...people have large soft dodgers with "plastic" windows...how do they see forward in a storm or heavy rain? Rain X has always sufficed for me.

Now for the downside...

As Rohan wrote, you will be doing most of your steering from the outside steering station. Once you add an autopilot you will not be doing much steering at all; especially below deck. In the PNW when there was no wind and lots of rain (which is a common occurrence) I would go below, make some hot chocolate, keep watch (both visually and electronically) and let the AP steer the course. While sailing...you'll likely be in the cockpit (albeit short trips below) to stand watch, trim sails, be one with nature, etc.

Simple day sails with friends or beer can races are the obvious exceptions...but when cruising...once the boat is out of the marina the AP goes on, and I use my windvane around the islands. On long passages the hours spent at the helm can be counted on one hand with 3 fingers missing.

(BTW...I'm working on a long overdue blog post detailing why I converted my inside steering station to a navigation console next to my chart table.)

Another downside of pilothouses is a smallish cockpit. On my boat...4 people in the cockpit is 1 or 2 too many while sailing. At anchor....4 or 6 is comfortable...but there is no social distancing going on. Pilothouses are typically designed for maximum space below deck; which makes pilothouses excellent liveaboards or hanging on the hook for a few months.

Another downside is aesthetics and the tired old myths repeated over and over. Many people either like 'em or hate 'em based on aesthetics alone. Some people regurgitate myths they've heard (similar to the "blue-water" boat myths).

My boat is not really pretty. She is also not a dock queen. She's got some scars, but she is strong, safe, and comfortable....and I would say the Dufour PH is also a capable boat. Buy a boat that suits your needs and your desired comfort level...if you cruise/liveaboard...you'll spend a lot of time on her.

[sv_pelagia]

We have (and love!) our Sceptre 41 "pilothouse"
https://www.flickr.com/gp/sv-pelagia/90132s
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/sceptre-41

A great sailing boat, not a "motorsailer" (tho' motoring is all too common for us here in BC).

Pelagia does indeed have inside steering (yes, with a windshield wiper), but we rarely use the inside steering. (We used it most when dropping down below to get or check on something, especially for overnight passages.) With a good dodger and bimini, we prefer our cockpit steering (and we now have a full enclosure, so all the better.)

We love the bright main salon (saloon?) with its excellent visibility. So do our cruising friends....

But as already noted, we learned a real downside of the pilothouse: while in Mexico, we found it became like a greenhouse inside. Shades were essential.

Back home here in BC, the greenhouse effect is more of a plus than a negative [emoji6]

[SV__Grace]

That is a sweet boat! Lots of good comments here and I echo how hot a raised PH area can get, but tinted windows and good ventilation take care of most of that in all but the climates where it's hot no matter what.

What I don't see addressed is that this boat is a center cockpit ketch like my Nauticat 43. While it has a lower profile/less windage, this configuration doesn't behave well at anchor as there is too much windage forward of centerline to weathercock.

Easy, built in fix is to use the mizzen as a riding sail. Works well, you only need 1/2 to 3/4 unfurled, just be sure to sheet it as tight as possible.

[Captain Puget]

I own a pilot house and prefer it.

Cooling is not an issue if you insulate, tint with uv protection and have opening windows. A boom awning also helps when anchored. Motoring in the really hot times is nicer from inside with all the windows open, out of the sun.

Dual stations are a positive safety redundancy that has saved my butt 2x, as well as a convenience ... especially in inclement weather. It makes year round sailing in the NW enjoyable.

There is more windage, but I love enjoying the view rather than descending into a dark cave where I can’t see the surroundings.

[rmesfo]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

I've had a pilothouse for the past 22 years. I never thought it would be the boat I would go cruising in...but after 20 years in the Pacific Northwest with the boat, a complete refit, and gallons of sweat and blood she is as much a part of me as my own hand. She is a safe and comfortable cruiser.

WRT windage...poppycock. Many of the new Bene's and Hanse's have raised salon decks that have as much if not more windage than my Cooper.

WRT visibility...poppycock. The cockpit sole on a pilothouse is raised so visibility over the doghouse is not affected. IMHO Nauticats and Cabo Rico PH's are motorsailers; not pilothouse sailboats. So, this statement doesn't apply to motorsailers with big boxy doghouses. But, since most of these boats are listed as PH also...they get lumped into PH discussions.

WRT cooling in hotter climates...poppycock. All uncovered boats in warmer climates (I'm in Hawaii now) will get toasty warm...especially boats that are some color other than white. And forget teak decks..they get hot and act as an insulator to keep the heat inside. There is a reason you see long-term cruising boats in the tropics covered with yards of Sunbrella...newer cruisers...not so much, but they learn very soon.

Each window in my doghouse is tinted and has a 90% Phifertex covering. It allows light in during the day, but blocks 90% of the sun's rays. I have a canvas tent over the doghouse as well as over the foredeck and a hard dodger with canvas bimini in the cockpit. The canvas over the foredeck and doghouse allow the hatches to stay open during rain. Ventilation and shade is critically important to keeping the inside of any sailboat cool in the tropics.

In the cockpit I use 75% Phifertex for side curtains. The 75% allows better air flow than the 90%, but still keeps the cockpit from direct sunlight.

Most boats with inside steering have hydraulic steering. The maintenance is bleeding the pumps at different levels (which could be listed as a downside). But, my maintenance has consisted for pump rebuilds every 20 years (I rebuilt the pumps when I bought the boat, and rebuilt before heading off to HI), checking the hydraulic fluid levels once a month.

WRT windshield wipers....that is definitely "old school" tech....Rain X works wonders. I removed the wipers from my forward looking windows and never installed them on my hard dodger windows. Think about it...people have large soft dodgers with "plastic" windows...how do they see forward in a storm or heavy rain? Rain X has always sufficed for me.

Now for the downside...

As Rohan wrote, you will be doing most of your steering from the outside steering station. Once you add an autopilot you will not be doing much steering at all; especially below deck. In the PNW when there was no wind and lots of rain (which is a common occurrence) I would go below, make some hot chocolate, keep watch (both visually and electronically) and let the AP steer the course. While sailing...you'll likely be in the cockpit (albeit short trips below) to stand watch, trim sails, be one with nature, etc.

Simple day sails with friends or beer can races are the obvious exceptions...but when cruising...once the boat is out of the marina the AP goes on, and I use my windvane around the islands. On long passages the hours spent at the helm can be counted on one hand with 3 fingers missing.

(BTW...I'm working on a long overdue blog post detailing why I converted my inside steering station to a navigation console next to my chart table.)

Another downside of pilothouses is a smallish cockpit. On my boat...4 people in the cockpit is 1 or 2 too many while sailing. At anchor....4 or 6 is comfortable...but there is no social distancing going on. Pilothouses are typically designed for maximum space below deck; which makes pilothouses excellent liveaboards or hanging on the hook for a few months.

Another downside is aesthetics and the tired old myths repeated over and over. Many people either like 'em or hate 'em based on aesthetics alone. Some people regurgitate myths they've heard (similar to the "blue-water" boat myths).

My boat is not really pretty. She is also not a dock queen. She's got some scars, but she is strong, safe, and comfortable....and I would say the Dufour PH is also a capable boat. Buy a boat that suits your needs and your desired comfort level...if you cruise/liveaboard...you'll spend a lot of time on her.

That was the best explanation of a pilothouse I have ever read. I actually believe that are great cruising and liveaboard vessels and would buy one if I morph into that mode. Right now, I said my Pearson in the bay area and little beyond but would certainly consider a pilothouse is my plans change.
Thank you for your post.

[foojin]

There are lovely pilothouses. We've been aboard many that are deservedly loved by their owners. They are a dream to cruise in unpleasant conditions. The natural light and view outside are wonderful.

They are not for us. We are liveaboards. They do not suit the way we use space as we spend most of our time living, not sailing.

Pilothouses, by practical need, are broken into several compartments. We like one large salon where 6-8 people can sit, where a person in the galley is part of the conversation, where folks can get up easily to use the loo or mix a drink.

We have looked at many pilothouses when we have been in the boat market. We've never been aboard one that seemed suitable for a family get-together.

As well, to us, where we live, sailing is an outdoor activity.

Everybody is different. That's why there are different designs.

[Cpt Mark]

Former owner of a pilothouse monohull and current owner of a catamaran which is a huge raised pilothouse.

I would only buy a raised pilothouse. The big box contraptions {PH} don't appeal to me at all. Raised PH's still look good and add wonderful features.

Heat. Yep. Can be a problem but same as on any boat. Ventilation is key. My mono had a huge hatch above the inside steering and three, 14" opening hatches facing forward. As long as there was breeze I stayed as coo; as anyone and probably a lot better then most. My cat has 2 large hatches, 1 medium hatch and 2 small hatches in the main cabin.

I love love love the viability of a PH. I like the extra light coming in and the safety for being able to keep watch from inside when weather sucks outside. You're not going to be docking your boat from the inside. So if it's raining...

Hydraulic steering was easy to maintain. It does however reduce the feel of the helm. You will learn to steer a bit differently. Not a big deal. Think of it like this. A tiller gives you instant response, a wheel gives you delayed response, hydraulic gives you more delayed response.

Dual helm stations are set up as one is primary, the other is secondary. It is important to know which is which. On my mono the inside steering was the primary. Not a problem except when I had small kids on board and they wanted to play with the wheel down below lol. After that episode I just had a specific talk with everyone on board about safety and expected behavior and do not touch that wheel.

Windage blah blah blah. So much is how the boat was built and designed. Mine was a full keel crab crusher and while sailing the SF bay one of my fav things to do was "race" other boats. You know, when any 2 boats see each other it becomes a race. I enjoyed racing the much faster boats who were always positive that I didn't stand a chance. Well, read the water and sail them into a wind hole and my boat because it was heavy would cruise through barely while they stalled out in the middle. Race over lol.

Dual stations now. This was 20 years ago. My cat today only has a single helm station. I have an AP that has controls on the inside of the cabin and the helm. My MFD can be duplicated on my tablet so when the weather is really bad I can see whatever I need to from the inside and still control the boat. Coastal, offshore this is fine. Coming into and across a bar entrance in a driving rain storm or a calm day I'm outside.

[Kd9truck]

I like a big cockpit with nobody in it, but I get your attraction, I like the center cockpit if there is a big stern birth and a well constructed permanent dodger, the wheel house does not need to be permanent construction in my mind
Our dodger and Bimini shield us from about 80% of the weather both can be dropped if we are worried about windage. I love the open space above and below, our vessel is more of an open concept design and that is what we were drawn to.
I’ve been in a couple of storms in land and off shore, incredibly beautiful, but also nothing I plan on being in if I don’t have to, that being said I am out there by myself (the only boat on the Long Island sound) when the reported wind is over 25 knots in July with the dingy deployable and the life raft accessible . Lots of people like to wear the armor, but few are willing to climb the house to joist.

[Bundyon]

We have a PH, primarily we are live aboards and Cruisers. For our purposes it suits us fine. Being able to go into the PH when the weather goes to *****, shut the door, be warm, dry & comfortable is a big plus for us. Our boat has reasonably wide full walk around deck and strong solid safety rails, windage appears to be no worse than any other 45-50 footer. Sure, our boat doesn't sail as good or as fast as say a "normal" type of sailing boat or my previous boat, a 45' Mauritius sloop. We don't care, we are comfortable, love the open plan layout, the natural light the PH offers, (yes, we have tinted windows & a Sunbrella to keep out the Aussie sun). We spend most of our time when at sea, sitting & steering from out in the aft cockpit, knowing that if the weather turns nasty, we have the PH to retreat to.
Different strokes for different folks.

[Chotu]

Problems with pilot houses:

*Cant enjoy the first snow fall of sailing season at the helm
*Rain gear/foulies might degrade from lack of use
*No sunbrella dodgers and whatnot to keep your sewing skills up
*Will have a hard time finding warm gloves because you have no idea where you put them
*Sunscreen is all expired and dried up when you go to the beach
*One less ivory back scratcher for your dermatologist or less presents for his kids
*Problems sleeping at the anchorage because you’re still too rested up after your passage
*May have to wash your butt more often because it doesn’t get a free washing sitting outside in puddles and rain
*Local mosquito population will go hungry and suffer
*Local Raymarine or B&G rep may not make their quota and might end up out of a job.

In short, there are numerous problems with pilot houses. None of them yours.

[DIJ]

Originally Posted by foojin

Pilothouses, by practical need, are broken into several compartments. We like one large salon where 6-8 people can sit, where a person in the galley is part of the conversation, where folks can get up easily to use the loo or mix a drink.

We have looked at many pilothouses when we have been in the boat market. We've never been aboard one that seemed suitable for a family get-together.

.

Try a Southerly - galley, interior steering position, nav station and saloon where 6-8 can sit, are all closer than hailing distance.